Is Netanyahu Trying to Make the Two-State Option an Impossibility?

The go-ahead on the E1 settlements could make a contiguous Palestinian West Bank a practical impossibility--and with it, a viable two-state solution to the decades long impasse.

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Abir Sultan / Pool / Getty Images

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu attends a weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem on Nov. 13, 2011

Unless you’re actually driving around the West Bank — sailing down the freeways Israel has built atop Palestinian land or steering down the two-lane roads etched into the hillsides topped with more than 200 subdivisions, little bits of California atop stone hills straight from Bible story books — it’s difficult to appreciate the reality of what Israel calls its “settlement project.” But a geography specialist named Danny Seidemann found a vivid point of reference for the new part of it Israel announced over the weekend: “The doomsday settlement.”

If the U.N. has moved to declare Palestine is a state, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu then has a few things to say — and do — about that. The 1.6 million Palestinians living on the Gaza Strip are already separated by 40 km (25 miles) from the 2.4 million on the West Bank. The project Netanyahu’s government began moving forward on Friday would cut the West Bank itself in half, dividing its north from its south while barricading off a bit of Jerusalem in the bargain, and with it, in all likelihood, the plans to name the Arab sections of the city as Palestine’s capital. “The impact,” says Seidemann, whom foreign embassies routinely consult as an expert on settlements and the boundaries of the contentious city, “is basically the creation of facts on the ground that would make the two-state solution dead. It’s not only a game changer, it’s a game ender.”

The reaction to Netanyahu’s bold move, both in Israel and abroad, was swift and negative. Britain and France summoned Israel’s ambassadors to hear protests, and reportedly were considering ordering their own envoys home, a move without precedent. Washington condemned the move, which came just hours after U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice forcefully delivered a speech of solidarity with the Jewish state on the floor of the General Assembly.

In Israel, both the right and left wing of the Hebrew press asked why, after losing the U.N. vote 138 to 9, an Israeli government would announce a move sure to further its international isolation. (Technically, the way Palestine is run hasn’t changed because of the vote; the Palestinian Authority simply has a different status — which happens to have the word state in it — within the international organization, with a few new legal prerogatives.) In Ma’ariv, the conservative columnist Ben-Dror Yemini called Netanyahu’s move “Pavlovian” and wrote, “Rather than thank the American administration for its amazing support on Thursday at the U.N. vote, the slap in the face came on Friday with the announcement of the construction of thousands of additional housing units.” In Yedioth Ahronoth, Nahum Barnea reported from the Saban Forum, a Washington, D.C., gathering of prominent Israeli and Americans in which the rules constrain attendees from saying who said what. The gist of a speech by a prominent American politician (identified in the same paper the next day as Obama’s former Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel) was: “You Israelis are ingrates. You’ve screwed yourselves.” Barnea’s conclusion: “Something bad has happened over the years to the production line in Israeli politics.”

The “doomsday settlement” would be built on a section of land labeled E1 on planning maps of Jerusalem and its surroundings. The land is currently a park — the visually striking western slope of a hillside leading toward the Jordan Valley and a massive Jewish settlement already in place, Ma’ale Adumim. All the land is Palestinian, but Israel has occupied it since 1967, and by filling it with Jewish housing would make it impossible to travel from, say, Ramallah to Hebron. On maps, what looks like open space to the east is in fact the depths of the Jordan Valley, hundreds of meters below sea level where the Dead Sea lies.

“The administration warned Netanyahu publicly last Friday, ‘Please don’t do it,’’’ Seidemann says, who goes on to describe the Israeli Prime Minister’s decision to ignore the advice as consciously flagrant.

Meanwhile, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas returned from New York City to cheers. “We are now a state,” he told a throng of 3,000 loyalists in the West Bank city of Ramallah. “The world is with us, and history is with us, God is with us, and the future is ours.” The new paradigm was displayed down the length of a nearby building, where a banner unfurled in hazard yellow read, in English, Arabic and Hebrew: “Warning! This Is Illegally Occupied Land. State of Palestine, 29/11/2012.”

“Let me just say that we are standing at a very big Palestinian wedding,” said a delighted Talal J’bara, 65. “It is the first time the world recognizes who we are and that we even exist.”

“The most important thing now is that our leaders do whatever it takes to stop the expansion of the settlements and all of Israel’s wrongdoing,” said Khateem Khatab, a retiree who had traveled from Jerusalem to Ramallah for the celebratory rally. “Negotiations will only prevail once the Israelis stop all their provocations against the Palestinian people and their land.” (Netanyahu also announced Israel would hold back more than $100 million in tax revenues owed to the Palestinian Authority, a punishment that Washington also had urged Israel to forgo. )

Abbas framed the bid for statehood as a last-ditch effort to revive negotiations begun almost 20 years ago aimed at creating a Palestinian state beside Israel, roughly on the border that separated the two populations until 1967, when Israeli forces defeated Arab armies and began occupying the West Bank and Gaza. But as the negotiations dragged on, Israel continued settling its people on the land — they now number 500,000, including neighborhoods built in East Jerusalem.

Having forsworn violent resistance, Abbas argued that diplomatic leverage was the only kind available to check Israel’s military and other advantages. The U.N. vote naming Palestine a nonmember state opens the door to the International Criminal Court, where individual Israelis could be charged for violations of war crimes, a threat Abbas says he will hold in abeyance for now. A period of sorting and settling is likely underway. Though both sides say they are wiling to return to negotiations, each are likely to be addressing mostly their own constituencies for the next few months. Netanyahu is facing an election set for Jan. 22, a prospect that Seidemann and others say may help account for his decision to brandish E1 — it plays to the rightist and settler constituencies that have recently all but overwhelmed his Likud party. Abbas, meanwhile, is under new pressure to find a way to reconcile with Hamas, the militant Islamist group that governs Gaza, and bring the two Palestinian territories under a unified administration, especially now that they’re nominally a state.

But in a conflict that’s finally, ultimately, about land, the lessons of November were not lost on Palestinians.

Hamas launched 1,300 missiles into Israel during the military offensive aimed at stopping the launches, and in return won territorial concessions. Under the terms of the cease-fire brokered by Egypt, Gaza’s fishermen doubled the distance they can travel from shore before encountering Israeli gunboats, and Palestinian farmers won access to the one-third of the enclave’s arable land that abuts the border fence with Israel proper. A week later, Abbas, who heads the secular Fatah party, won the lopsided vote at the U.N., and Israel’s response was to appropriate another chunk of the West Bank for its own use. “We have one goal, and to be honest, it doesn’t matter whether it is Fatah or Hamas, the most important thing is that we achieve our freedom,” says Manar Fathi, 40, at the Ramallah rally. “As long as the world is with us, I don’t think we even care about what Israel is and what they can do to us.”

— With reporting from Rami Nazzal / Ramallah

212 comments
ntiquesrme
ntiquesrme

PatekCalatrava thank you for telling the truth. Wish we had more people like you to speak up for Israel and God. You are right. they do not have any right. They need to give up there land if they want Islam there. Being that most of the U.N. is muslim and Our President in the U.S. is muslim Israels only savior is God. What all of Europe and America do not understand is the bible makes it clear. You curse my people I will curse you. You divide my land I will divide yours. You bless my people I will bless you. All the curses these evil leaders will bring on our Countries because they want to control Israel and Jerusalem. They do not fear God yet but, they will. We have to suffer for the Harbingers they keep bringing on the world because of the evil they possess. God have mercy on us please who love Israel and the your people in it.



PatekCalatrava
PatekCalatrava

No matter how many of you phony baloney hypocritical mongoloids jump on the hate Israel bandwagon, you will lose.  Israel was here long before you and your tree climbing ancestors and will be here long after you're gone and forgotten. 

thejerusalemcenter
thejerusalemcenter

From the start of the peace-process negotiations, it was agreed between the parties, and accepted by the international community, that the issue of settlements would be one of several issues to be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations.None of the agreements signed between Israel and the Palestinians contain any limitation on building in the areas under their respective jurisdiction.

for this and more go to : www.jcpa.org

StevenChavez
StevenChavez

whoever divides israel will feel the wrath of God almighty... 

ILiveMovies
ILiveMovies

@soundoff 

Read my first post, I'm against building new settlements and I hope Netanyahu won't be reelected. I want the two-states solution, most Israelis do, but not as long as Hamas is in power, an organization that has one goal in mind: wipe Israel off the map completely. We will not go for the Two states solution with a group that only sees it as the first step in their mission to bring it to One, that would be suicide.

You can’t reason with Hamas, the same way the Americas can't reason with al-Qaeda, the same way the Jews couldn’t reason with Hitler, the same way Herod’s family couldn’t reason with him, the same way Catherine Martin couldn’t reason with Jame Gumb.

“Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”

To all the Israel haters here: Many Muslims live in Israel, they go to Israeli schools and become our scientists, our doctors, our teachers, our athletes. I invite you to travel around Israel, visit the Old City in Jerusalem, visit Haifa and Acre, see how Muslims and Jews and Christians live together in peace and harmony.

Here's one of our TV stars, look how miserable she looks, a Muslim living in Israel with those evil Jews (sarc): http://food.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=822569

Peace.

timeforren
timeforren

Could someone explain something to me. Why does the author say that the West Bank cannot be connected through the Jordan Valley even if E 1 is built? I know the area is below sea level and the terrain is hilly but there is still a land - link. I understand that right now the jordan valley region is controlled by Israeli settlements but eventually in a peace deal, this would revert back to the Palestinians and hence west bank would be connected.

SamSweden
SamSweden

I strongly urge Mr. RobertLipschitz to read the book : Einstein On Israel and Zionism by Fred Jerome. In this book Einstein the great Jewish thinker expressed his strong opinion against establishing a Jewish state in Palestine. He blamed the British and the infamous Balfour declaration for dividing Palestine, half for the Jews, the other half for Christian and Moslem Palestinians. Eistein vision was to have one Palestine for trhe indeginous Christians, Jews ansd Moslems, including the flow of Jews from Europe. One nation for all religiousd groups, taking into consideration that Jerusalem is the craddle of Judaism, Christianity (the burial place of Jesus Christ ) and Islam, where Prophet Mohamed ascended to heaven from Jerusalem.  I also urge Mr. RobertLipschitz to read via google the letter Einstein wrote to the New York Times in December 1948 protesting the visit of Menachem Begin to the United States. In this letter Einstein and other Jewish and Christian academics and intellectuals denounced Begin and his party describing it and  I quote: as closely akin in its organazation, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties...Unquote. Menachim Begin later became the Prime Minister of Israel...

soundoff
soundoff

As Bibi ends the two state solution he takes the Jewish state with him.

yoejun
yoejun

I tought deontic or culture in thousands island, but this one of thousands island in my country have political view, so if for example Golan wind not demarcation or boundaries, the word for this root in Japanese word mean see, view, aim direction, delienation in America but this derivatives are regulation, rule, criterion their order. The next Kanji Watch, regard, vision. Netanyahu must have vision. I am not in opposite, but look from the page from my dictionary.

fdardick
fdardick

"But in a conflict that’s finally, ultimately, about land"... Swing and a miss. This conflict has nothing to do with land and everything to do with the Palestinians holding out for the "right of return" to Israel. ie. flooding Israel with millions of Arabs who would then proceed to murder and rape their way across the land until every last Jew is dead or leaves, kind of like what happened to the Christians in Lebanon in the 1960s-1970s and the Coptic Christians in Egypt right now.

Dachman
Dachman

There is no disputing that in 70AD that the land was the Jews and the nation of Israel until the Romans destroyed Jeruselem and killed over 1 million Jews.

So if everyone really wants to be fair the entire West Bank and Gaza should be wholly given back to the Jews.

RobertLipschitz
RobertLipschitz

@MatrixFact @BorisMr MatrixYou are just a hater, not a thinker. You think you think, but really you just spew hate.But indeed your words are recorded for all time, and I am sorry for you.

A word of kindness:

Israel is not Satan BUT

      You can be very sure that      Those who call the Jews Satan (those who define their entire world history on this view)Always sit on top of the very pinnacle of evil themselves .

That where you sit. 

SamSweden
SamSweden

I just went through the video down below this comments column entitled Peace in the Middle East. An appaling video by a  human being who is spreading a biased view, destorting the truth  about the crimes commited by Israel,. I urge you all and him to watch the following video by Roger Walters of the Pink Floyd band...expressing his views  last week 29 November at the UN  He spoke on behalf of all the decent human beings in this planet about Israel:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9DrSPFYXUfQ   

FekriA.Hossen
FekriA.Hossen

As the Palestinian people become for a new steps of the peace process the Israeli occupation starts to derail the process.

The problem started by 1948 there was a Palestinian people live on historic Palestine and Zionism came to destroy nearly 500 Palestinian villages and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. Jews began to flow into Palestine until this day.

There are more than 5 million Palestinians living outside Palestine and have the full right to return home.

The only solution for the establishment of the State of Palestine is output every Jew Israel and send them where they came from, this is the only solution to restore the historic Palestine.

SamSweden
SamSweden

It is about time that the USA and European leaders stop their double standard behaviouir by supporting apertheid Israel in one hand and on the other issuing toothless statements against Israel's building more settlements in Palestinian land. As long as USA and Europe go on with this double attitude Israel will be encouraged go on defying international law by going on with their ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians...   

valmach
valmach

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that? Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” BenGurionFormerZionistRacistTeorrist, Former IsraeiliPrimeMInister..

YehudaElyada
YehudaElyada

B.S. Netanyahu knows there is no real alternative, but he insist that the border will be negotiated rather than imposed on Israel by a coalition of countries chanting “back to 1967 lines”. In this he has the support of most Israelis, even though there is no consensus which lines serve best the Israeli interests. The “punishment” also reflects the prevailing feeling among Israelis, that other countries exhibit total hypocrisy when condemning Israeli acts of self-defense. It is targeted against the Western/Democratic powers, not the Palestinians – which could not be deterred no matter what. Essentially, Netanyahu wants to send the message to Europe that there is a price to the practice of treating Israel as a trivial sacrifice whenever their politicians feel the urge to express a moral judgment.

Oniprett54
Oniprett54

History is replete with nations and land grabbing. The colonizing Brits did it in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA; the dutch did it in South Africa; the African tribes at various times have done it to themselves. In those 'dark days' it was alright as weaker nations were gobbled up by the powerful ones. Germany tried it in two world wars and failed. And since then, also with the formation of the United Nations, the world has been striving to be civilized with respect for nations, tribes, and enclaves. 

However this did not stop the Boers in South Africa from trying out Apartheid. It was no wonder that the best friend of the Apartheid regime in South Africa at a time most nations were isolating them was Israel. The later found the system interesting and wished to duplicate it in Palestine. What Israel is doing with the land grab is a process of snuffing nationhood from the mindset of the Palestinians. There are more Palestinians in the diaspora than in West Bank and Gaza. Israel hopes that if they continue on this path, in another 100 years, the notion of a Palestinian State will have fizzled out. America and perhaps Europe are the only countries that could stop this madness but their hands are tied by default in the very game they orchestrated. 

It is therefore only the conscience of the United Nations that can help to shape leaders of the World to checkmate Israel. Abbas knows this. Obama knows this too, hence his earlier advise to Israel that a time would come when they would have no pitched battles to fight, but humanity. With the likes of Netanyahu in Israel, the Palestinians are doomed. The question is: does Israel have the guts to transcend their biblical destiny?   

hsknyc
hsknyc

AMERICAN are SICK OF ISRAEL's BACK STABBING OF OUR SUPPORT FOR FOR THEM. It is truly time for Isreal to stnad up to int'l obligations and grant Palestine a state.  Doesn't Israel see that they are against the US?  We are SICK OF IT.  Time to man up Israel.

JohnFrum
JohnFrum

We should do to Israel exactly what Israel has suggested and orchestrated doing to Iran – cripple the Apartheid Israeli economy

Israel is reporting France is saying ‘we don’t want to start sanctioning Apartheid Israel…hint…hint…hint’

Netanyahu is playing a game he's already lost here

JohnFrum
JohnFrum

The problem with Israel is she has been 'kiting' her settlements and land grabs for so long that there is little left of Israel that IS legitimate

She's like Bernie Madoff - the extent of her illegal gains are inseparable from any possible legal holdings. It's basically all illegal at this point

This is not surprising when you read Israelis themselves who say this has been precisely the plan all along - to so intercalate herself with Palestine (as she has now done) that a separate Palestinian state would be impossible

Israel created the current Apartheid state precisely so it would be inseparable from Palestine - she created the One State even if she was so foolish to create an Apartheid One State that will now be dismantled. It was a good ride while it lasted...

Congratulations Israel - you win the contest of the biggest Fools' Paradise on the planet - like Bernie Madoff I know it's difficult to see it all end

Apartheid Israel is a Fools' Paradise - and all King Netanyahu's men and paid bloggers can no longer keep it together - Palestine is 3/4s free already and Apartheid is 1/4 gone

hsknyc
hsknyc

I agrre, Israel wil have to start expelling Palestinians to cap the population growth.  Just as the Nazis did to them during WWII.

So sad how peoeple can't learn from history.

I am hoping that the Israelis are not as narrow minded as their leader Natenayu, and vote him out of office this January and reverse his ill fated decision to build more setlements on now internatnionally recognized Palestinian lands.

Shame on Israelis for even putting up with Natenayu's childish behavior. 

Robert2011GB
Robert2011GB

The Israelis have to get it into their heads that Judaism is greater than Israel - there are 15 million Jews and 6 million Israelis. The majority of Jews strongly disagree with the thuggish actions of the Israeli state.

By killing off a two state solution, the Israelis are left with a single state but although they want Palestinian land, they do not want the people so the next two decades will see expulsions as the Israelis start expelling the Palestinians.

ClaudiaBrown22
ClaudiaBrown22

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ghouri
ghouri

If Israel will continue to indulge such things it will add fire on oil. Middle east is already furious at least public.

Israel must behave like a civilised nation if they don,t will have to suffer. One day america will also abondon Israel for their notorious acts.

As I write doubt they were victims of Nazis if then they will not repat it. Hitler did few months and Israelis are killing since 65 years innocent civilians on different pretext.

I am sure Israel will accelerate the arrival of Jesus Christ to punish them and wipe out from the world map.

SamSweden
SamSweden

PatekCalatrava is the one who is a phony baloney hypocrital mongolide who hates the free world for criticizing the appaling Apertheid Nazi like of Zionist Israel policy of ethnic cleanzing of the Palestinians...PatekCalatrava should have soul searching and if he really cares and loves Israel and the Israeli people, then instead of his hate campaign against the fre world he should then join the leaderss of the free world  including Obama and incliuding the many Jews and the citizens of the free world in voicing their protests  to stop Netanyahu  building more settlemnts in Palestinian land and lift all blockades of Palestine including Gaza...

MatrixFact
MatrixFact

@Dachman  And killed the others? Expelled all the others? To burn their houses even when they are sleeping ?Islam system do not same as when he had the opportunity to kill all, despite!! While giving them to you to kill and expel people from their home!!!You're American, then you are as the land of others, according to you, you also need to release foreign lands, until 1607 lived Indos and land is to them! What do you say about this ..................................................... ?

MatrixFact
MatrixFact

@RobertLipschitz I have nowhere said that all Jews are satanic, but Zionist criminal system.

There are still Jews who observes the divine orders Torah. So keep once and mind are two separate things Judaism and Zionis.Zionism is fraudulent materjalist that enslaves the whole world, who stole Palestinian land in the name of Judaism, and operates in the name of Judaism for the purposes of the criminal system, because there is nothing to do with Torah, nothing.................... so saying they are satanic as you disregard the orders of Allah in His books, ranging from the Torah, the Gospel of Jesus, and finally the noble Quran.

guitarguymv
guitarguymv

@SamSweden As a fan of Pink Floyd, I found Waters' presentation despicable. He excoriated Israel again and again, but failed to mention even once the Palestinian suicide bombers or the placement of bombs on Israeli public buses. That was swept under the carpet as "justified resistance." It's time to stop making demands of Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization. It is Hamas that must give up its dream of destroying Israel.

fdardick
fdardick

Half the Jews in Israel are descendants of refugees from Arab countries - Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc... When conflict broke out between Jews and Muslims in the late 1940s the newly formed Israel welcomed their fellow Jews. The Arabs on the other hand locked up the Palestinian refugees into internment camps where they continue to rot to this very day.

I don’t see Jews returning to Iraq working out so well…

MatrixFact
MatrixFact

@valmach

God promised this to Jews several times, even as they were in Egypt had promised but had to obey God, they sometimes ignored God who ultimately command you to live scattered among other peoples. And if this order is broken by tragedy You will stab you in this world and the next, obviously! Jews have fallen victim to Zionist system, it seems the once again failed in respect of the ordinance of God ... Which means they will hit for what they do and for contempt of the order!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WcshuK9oSiY#t=49s

EvaSmagacz
EvaSmagacz

@YehudaElyada

Netanyahu is using theft of Palestinian land to communicate with Europe? Is this a new quaint Israeli custom - to break 10 Commandments to communicate? Can someone rape your wife's sister to communicate with you?

Peacemaker
Peacemaker

@Oniprett54  Excuse me! We Brits grabbed a lot more land than that. At one point we controlled about 1/3 of the world's population and 1/4 of its land area, not to mention most of the oceans. All gone in 50 years! Sic transit gloria mundi, as a Roman once said. Where will all this be in another 50 years?

guitarguymv
guitarguymv

@Oniprett54 That's a great summary. But keep in mind Israel's history. Refugees from Nazi Germany, survivors of many Arab wars. World consternation means little especially to the old guard like Netanyahu.

Dachman
Dachman

I am an American and I dont agree with you.

Peacemaker
Peacemaker

@fdardick After WW2 the British tried to send shiploads of refugee Jews back to camps in Germany!!! They made it to Israel eventually.

RobertLipschitz
RobertLipschitz

@MatrixFact @valmach 

This is not a mainstream Jewish group - its totally TOTALLY fringe. Its one view. I respect his view, BECAUSE I can tell he has some learning behind it and I understand where he is coming from. But that's an internal debate, and I and many hundreds of thousands of others, can argue decisively against him. 

Anyway, the point again is, we - as in Nation of Israel as it exists now in its totally - do disagree. We believe that we should live in Israel. And we are thriving here, if you have not noticed: spiritually, economically and culturally. 

You have NOT ONE political/ secular argument against us. All this religious stuff - quoting our own Rabbi's in arguments you know nothing about. And how are those images you show after that movie. You would actually promote this video? The final image with a butcher with blood and a star of David. 

Do you know these images were used to help perpetrate the Holocaust? 

Listen, Matrix, this discussion is over. Dont think you are only an enemy of the Zionists. You are an enemy of the Jewish people, an enemy of the children of God. Really, I am sorry for you. For you live in total illusion and you form the ground of your being in illusion and IN THE NEXT WORLD (that you long for so much) you will not exist...unless, you turn around....you can think for yourself, try. 

Peacemaker
Peacemaker

@MatrixFact @valmach  God had to keep promising the land to the Jews because they kept losing it to stronger people. Now they are the strong ones, but for how long?

Peacemaker
Peacemaker

@guitarguymv @Oniprett54  The world ignored the plight of the Jews when the Nazis were doing far worse things to them than Israelis have ever done to the Palestinians. There was not much fuss  made about Saddam Hussein's massacre of Kurds when he was an ally of the USA. The ethnic wars in Yugoslavia when it broke up were also ignored, as were the massacres in Ruanda. The world is quite good at not noticing bad events unless there are economic consequences.

soundoff
soundoff

@Dachman This would be a diplomatic snub to a republican or democrat in office.  Are you aware of that?

RobertLipschitz
RobertLipschitz

@Peacemaker @RobertLipschitz @MatrixFact 

Peacemaker? What is your point? Is that like, yes...I see all your arguments; I agree all borders are forged by force of arms....and I hope Israel loses its land again....so what of your thoughts? I hope the opposite! The point is NONE OF YOU CAN ARGUE ON THE FACTS...THE FACTS ARE THERE IS NOTHING MORAL ABOUT PALESTINIANS RULING IN JERUSALEM JUST AS THEIR IS NOTHING MORAL ABOUT ANY PEOPLE RULING ANYWHERE. ITS JUST BRUTE FACTS. 

RobertLipschitz
RobertLipschitz

@MatrixFact 

Dude, I dont understand a word of what you are saying - before, I got something, a little bit of an inch of an idea. Now...these words....they are horrible....it is not language. 

RobertLipschitz
RobertLipschitz

@MatrixFact @RobertLipschitz 

The point is Judaism is totally Zionist. If some Jews are not Zionists, so what? The Jewish People, as a whole, are fiercely Zionistic, and we have been so for thousands and thousands of years, Before your Prophet was even born. 

You are a nonsensical. You believe that Islam gets to rule everywhere. So, we disagree. We think the Children of Israel should rule in Israel and we think you should accept that. 

Peacemaker
Peacemaker

@RobertLipschitz @MatrixFact 

Abram had two sons. His wife did not like her son Isaac playing with Ishmael and drove him and his mother away. Abram was not happy about this but God assured him that he would look after Ishmael and his descendants as well as those of Isaac. If you believe that this all goes back 3,500 years then Sarah's jealousy can be blamed for the whole mess.

Amos and God got it wrong did they not? The Romans did a pretty good job of uprooting the Jews again.

As somebody said earlier, The Israelis have once again taken the land by force. They may be able to hold it, but for how long? Their God has not done too good a job of protecting them in the past, so no guarantees this time either.

MatrixFact
MatrixFact

@RobertLipschitz   For this (because of the crime) was revealed (law) the ben- Israel that if anyone slew a person (not a right), it is in retaliation for someone else and without having done it any mischief in the land, then (his crime) isas if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone saved (it is due to be he alive) is as if he had risen (save) all people. Them (ben-Israel) Our messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that (decision) many of them committed (cross borders inhalation) on this earth. (Quran.. Chapter 5.  Verse 32. )

MatrixFact
MatrixFact

@RobertLipschitz  I'm not against any nation but against the Zionist criminal system, and all Jews are not Zionist. I agree that the period of Roman system made ​​you unjust, not only you but all those who were not supporters, But in the Ottoman period you had all the rights within the Islamic system, everywhere extending the system. Muslims not massacred you because they were based on the Quran, not expelled you, not killed you them neither destroyed the house when you were sleeping, nor was expelled from the Islamic system. All live in harmony and in peace because the Quran has instructed regardless of who which belongs to the nation, all are treated as people because we are all creatures of Allah. What do Zionists nor devil had not done this... have overcome Satan... but not for long!

RobertLipschitz
RobertLipschitz

@MatrixFact 

My point, Mr Matrix, is that you have fallen into a false dichotomy (if you understand that). There is NO DIFFERENCE between the religion and the people of Judaism, and the principles of Zionism (i.e. that Israel is the homeland of the Jews), e.g. 

Since we were expelled from Israel by the Romans 2000 years ago, we have prayed to return to Israel and Jerusalem every day, three times a day. The map of Israel described in the Bible is bigger and slightly different to the current map of Israel. For example, Ancient Israel included parts of Lebanon  but it excluded the south of the Negev (eilat). It most certainly included Jerusalem, as well as the "West Bank" where the Tribe of Judah lived,). 

(NOTE WELL: I am not bringing this as evidence for our moral claim to the land of Israel. If you see my other writings in these comments, you will see that I believe that all borders have been established through force of arms - and besides for appeals to religion, which are not feasible in secular context - NO BORDERS ARE MORAL. They are just brute physical facts. My complaint is that the World says Israel's borders are immoral when all their borders have been established with death and blood.)

BUT MR MATRIX. ALL MR MATRIXES OUT THERE. 

I want you to know Judaism is fiercely Zionist. I'll give you a few quotes from the Old Testemount (the Book of the Jews), to prove it:

Genesis 12:1-3 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

In Genesis 12:1 it is said:The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you." THIS IS ISRAEL

in Genesis 12:7:The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring [or seed] I will give this land." THIS IS ISRAEL

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

Amos 9:14-15 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God.

Isaiah 11:12 ESV / 3 helpful votes

He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

YOUR NOTION THAT YOU CAN BE VIOLENTLY ANTI-ZIONIST and that is not the same as being VIOLENTLY ANTI-JEWISH is NONESENSE. 

YOU ARE ANTI JEWSIH

And what I said stands