The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works

The country had one mass shooting in 2001, but a resulting anti-gun referendum failed to pass. The Swiss will not give up the gun. Can their system work in the U.S.?

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Michael Buholzer / Reuters

Swiss marksmen shoot at targets over 300 m away during an annual shooting-skills exercise near Bern

Even as the gun-control debate rises again in the U.S. in the aftermath of the horrific school shooting in Newtown, Conn., the gun-loving Swiss are not about to lay down their arms. Guns are ubiquitous in this neutral nation, with sharpshooting considered a fun and wholesome recreational activity for people of all ages.

Even though Switzerland has not been involved in an armed conflict since a standoff between Catholics and Protestants in 1847, the Swiss are very serious not only about their right to own weapons but also to carry them around in public. Because of this general acceptance and even pride in gun ownership, nobody bats an eye at the sight of a civilian riding a bus, bike or motorcycle to the shooting range, with a rifle slung across the shoulder.

(MORE: The World’s Best — and Worst — Places to Live)

“We will never change our attitude about the responsible use of weapons by law-abiding citizens,” says Hermann Suter, vice president of Pro-Tell, the country’s gun lobby, named after legendary apple shooter William Tell, who used a crossbow to target enemies long before firearms were invented.

Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.

Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland’s gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity. Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able to fight his way to his regiment’s assembly point. (Switzerland was at risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot.)

(MORE: Switzerland: Are Its Days as a Tax Haven for Foreigners Numbered?)

But the “gun in every closet” tradition was challenged in 2001, after a disgruntled citizen opened fire with his army rifle inside a regional parliament, killing 14 and injuring 14 others — the only mass shooting in Switzerland’s recent history. The subsequent opposition to widespread gun ownership spearheaded a push for stricter arms legislation. The government and pro-gun groups argued, however, that the country’s existing laws regulating the sale, ownership and licensing of private guns, which includes a ban on carrying concealed weapons, are stringent enough. The law allows citizens or legal residents over the age of 18, who have obtained a permit from the government and who have no criminal record or history of mental illness, to buy up to three weapons from an authorized dealer, with the exception of automatic firearms and selective fire weapons, which are banned. Semiautomatics, which have caused havoc in the U.S., can be legally purchased.

The authorities made one concession, though: since 2008, all military — but not private — ammunition must be stored in central arsenals rather than in soldiers’ homes. The debate culminated in a nationwide referendum last year, when 56% of voters rejected the proposal initiated by anti-gun organizations to ban army rifles from homes altogether.

Although guns are responsible for between 200 and 300 suicides each year in Switzerland, Pro-Tell’s Suter says these statistics have to be put in a wider perspective. He points out that the bullets used in suicides are only a tiny fraction of the 75 million rounds of ammunition that are fired each year in Switzerland during military and civilian target practice.

(MORE: When the Swiss Aren’t Neutral: Chocolates and the CIA)

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson.

“Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,” says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different countries and concluded that a “culture of support” rather than focus on individualism, can deter mass killings.

“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,” he tells TIME.

That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.

MORE: Switzerland: A Painful History

448 comments
ElvisX
ElvisX

There is one reason the US has a higher gun violence problem than Switzerland. One obvious but verbotten to speak of detail is that the majority of gun violence in the US comes from the inner city.


Switzerland doesn't have a inner city - Detroit, Chicago, Newark, Compton, Oakland, Camden, etc. 


These are the hubs of US gun violence and if these cities populations were in Switzerland then it too would be rife with  gun violence. It's not the guns that kill but the people who wield them.

JackLoach
JackLoach

Sods ----- Law.

April.---- 2015.


For almost two decades we have strived to get justice for the injustice we have suffered at the hands of a world renowned bank--- PICTET & CIE. BANK.


Two yorkshiremen both running their own small family businesses trying to resolve the problem by taking all the correct legal procedures to recover their monies.


The matter was raised in Parliament – twice-- the FSA investigated the matter concluding that PICTET had rogues operating in their London Bank --- but the rogues had left ---saying no one left to prosecute.??? ----- so there.


We then approached the Financial Ombudsman Service. (FOS) --- our case was dealt with by seven different people ---- then our numerous E-Mails were ignored --- nobody would speak to us -------so there.


We then asked the SFO ( Serious Fraud Office.) to investigate our case ---- the criteria of our case ticked all their boxes. --- we were instructed not to send them

any documents/evidence.------ in fact they wrote to us advising us to go to the Citizen's Advice Bureau.(CAB.)

Richard Alderman the SFO boss ---- who responded to our letter was the same man who would not investigate the “ Madoff” scandal or the “Libor” fiasco.

The MP's committee ---- said he was sloppy--- and the SFO was run like “ Fred Karno's Circus” ----- it was an office of fraud.----- so there.


Our M.P. approached our local Chief Constable to investigate----- he was called---- Sir Norman Bettison--- Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police ---- a force that made “ Dad's Army” look like the S.A.S. They were inept – corrupt ---malicious --- from top to bottom. We were criminally dealt with by the Forces Solicitor---- the Head of the Economic Crime Unit ----and the Chief Constable ----- so there.


We were then advised to pass our complaint against West Yorkshire Police to the I.P.C.C. – which we did --- they advised us to make our complaint to ---- the West Yorkshire Police --- we did with reluctance --- all we got was abuse and obfuscation. ----- so there.


Sir Norman Bettison ---- The Forces solicitor--- and the Head of the Economic Crime ---- have all been removed from their posts and facing criminal allegations.

------ so there.


We even sought justice through the Courts --- culminating in a visit to the Court of Appeal-London.--- On leaving the Courts of Appeal that day our barrister a “rising star” informed us --- that if that was British Justice then you can keep it. He quit the law and moved to Canada ----- so there.


A few years later we learned that one of the judges ( Lord Justice.) in our case at the Court of Appeal was related to a senior executive of the Pictet Bank -----so there.


The Ministry of Justice passed our case to Lord Myners to investigate --- we would rather have had Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck do it. --- to this day we don't know

---whether he did anything or not ---- probably not --- seeing that his wife was on the Pictet Prix Board.


Pictet & Cie .Bank --- voted private bank of the year 2013.

Ivan Pictet ---- Voted banker of the year 2012. ---- the senior partner --- lied on numerous occasions and had documents destroyed --- also said genuine documents were forgeries. ----- so there.


Ivan Pictet in Oct. 2013 ---- Given the Legion of Honour --- but saying that ---- honours were given to Hitler --- Eichmann --- Mussolini ---Franco --- he's in fitting company. ----so there.


MONTY RAPHAEL.Q.C. -- Peters & Peters.London. They were the banks lawyers.

Monty Raphael.Q.C. along with Ivan Pictet withheld crucial documents requested by the High Court ---- the FSA ---- and the police Fraud Squad. ----so there.


Monty Raphael.Q.C. became an Honorary Queens Counsellor in March. 2012.

Monty Raphael.Q.C. became a Master of the Bench in Nov.2012.

An expert in Fraud ---the Doyen of Fraud Lawyers. ----- so there.


This says a lot about Banks --- and their lawyers --the consensus of opinion is that they are highly paid “crooks” ---- no wonder they voted Ivan Pictet banker of the year. --- and Monty Raphael a Queens Counsellor – “crime does pay”?


It appears that crimes in the “establishment.” are honoured by their peers.

HONOURS AMONG THIEVES.”


Full Story.---- “google ”


Insert.----- The Crimes of ----- Pictet & Cie Bank.

or insert

Ivan Pictet/ Monty Raphael Q.C.

Quaggan
Quaggan

The one real difference is that they cannot use their military-issued gun to defend themselves. Plus, they do not have laws that permit killing people in self-defense like the castle law and crazy stand your ground laws in the US. So they don't have laws that promote the cowboy mentality that's pervasive in the US.

Swiss laws :

Article 15: Justifiable self-defense
If someone is unlawfully attacked or directly threatened with an attack, the attacked person or anyone else is entitled to ward off the attack in a manner appropriate to the circumstances.

Article 16: Excusable self-defense
If the defender exceeds the limits of self-defense under Article 15, the court shall mitigate his punishment.
If the defender exceeds the limits of self-defense due to excusable excitement or distress at the attack, he shall not be culpable.

Quaggan
Quaggan

Also of interest :
http://www.ssaa.org.au/research/1999/1999-12-07_swiss-response-self-defense-with-military-arms.html

"It's true that every Swiss soldier keeps his gun at his home. That does not mean, that he's got the right to use it whenever he wants to. On the contrary it's forbidden to use the gun for private purpose (exception: sport shooting in an official club). If a member of the Swiss Army nevertheless defends himself or his family with his army rifle, he's subject to the same rules as any other citizen who uses a gun. That means only in real danger of life and when no other defence possibilities exist, it can be allowed to make use of it. And even then the engagement must be always in proportion to the attack.

The unjustified use of a gun will be punished by the civil criminal law.

The penalties for killing a person is imprisonment from one to twenty years or even for life, for injury (grievous bodily harm) between six months and ten years. By the military criminal law there would be supplementary a punishment for misused application of military equipment."

Buzzman1
Buzzman1

The Swiss were not neutral. We bombed northern Switzerland quite heavily during WW2 and it wasnt by accident . It was to take out Nazi manufacturing facilities and troops.

Swiss-citizen
Swiss-citizen

@Buzzman1 

Not exactly. The town of Schaffhousen was hit by bombs due to a navigation error. Look at a map of where the city is located and you will understand. My dad was a navigator on a B-24 (No...not one that hit Switzerland). He showed me how small an error it was. Nevertheless, there was a conspiricy (of course) that it was to punish Switzerland for not joining the war against Germany. And NO, we were neutral. Always were, still are.


mrjmslosson
mrjmslosson

This is one smart country.  They are taking charge of their country in order to stop the infestation of foreigners who are, in many cases, little more than locusts.

Khronos
Khronos

@mrjmslosson Most foreigners of any country are usually little more then locusts and strangely crime goes UP not down when influxes happens in you're own country.

electrotectic
electrotectic

 (Switzerland was at risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot.)


Or maybe because they partly cooperated with Germany. It's complex. In any case, your version is glib.

JoyceClemons
JoyceClemons

You know what cracks me up about the Americans commenting on this thread is that they completely ignore the main reason why the Swiss have a distinctly positive view of personal firearms and skill in using them. Somehow it all wanders off into gun crime, minority topics, self-image, yada yada and almost any other thing other than the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.... Switzerland’s gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity.... culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation...Americans have blown off their duty to the UNORGANIZED MILITIA. It's part of our Constitution, it is codified into statute, and, because of left wing influence, it is considered archaic and laughable. What better way to undermine American security? And those of us who know better are supposed to be the clowns. It may be true that Americans no longer generally mistrust "standing armies" and that we endeavor to honor and value our troops and veterans. But I think the best way to honor them is to call them back into local community service to refresh, renew and train a new UNORGANIZED MILITIA, in accordance with Federal Law.

Skibum4106
Skibum4106

@JoyceClemons  In USA it will be the Unorganized Militia or Organized Militia  and Veterans against the Government and that scares the Government ....  Individuals can not stand up against the Government  where as a large group could ...

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@JoyceClemons wrote "Americans have blown off their duty to the UNORGANIZED MILITIA." 

Not all of us that's for sure.  The gun control crowd has lost ground significantly the last few years since the politicians pushed for more gun control.  The push back is significant with Kansas last week signing into law Constitutional carry which I think will spread to other states.  The fact is that less than 1/2 of 1% of all crimes are committed by those holding concealed permits...

KalCastelian
KalCastelian

Lets see...No concealed carry, only 3 weapons per person, no ammo, civic duty required.  How is like the US again?

pepe.felipe
pepe.felipe

@emailjamesikanov @KalCastelian I'm swiss and gun/rifle owner :) full auto firearm is ok, you just need a more expensive permit to buy plus some paperwork when you want to shoot it. suppressors are forbidden(At least they are in the area I'm living.). True regarding the ammo, there's no limit on how much you can store at home. It's true too regarding the fact that government used to issue ammo to the citizens, but only while in the army. As for the 3 weapons, it's 3 weapons per permit. Then you have to ask for another one (basically background check and 50 francs...)

emailjamesikanov
emailjamesikanov

@KalCastelian Where did it say only 3 weapons a person, exactly? And you can have all the ammo you want. The government used to ISSUE ammo to the citizens of Switzerland. I'm still not even sure this is all accurate, as I arrived here looking for information after reading about a supposedly Swiss person saying they could have just about any full auto firearm they wanted, with a suppressor even. The guns flow much freer there, my friend.

SwissGuy
SwissGuy

@JoeHorenkamp @pepe.felipe @emailjamesikanov @KalCastelian Hi. I'm Swiss and coincidentally saw your comment.


1. Estimated 80% - 90% of the guns owned by Swiss citizens are standard military issue rifles, sporting rifles or old Swiss army rifles (WW2 or later).

2. You are allowed to open carry these above-mentioned kinds of rifles almost everywhere you want. (train, bus, shopping mall, stores, etc.). You're allowed to keep the bolt and the magazine inside the gun, but the magazine has to be empty.

3. Other guns you need a permit for ownership are not allowed to be carried in public and if you transport them they have to be concealed. (As far as I know). You also can't use these guns on normal shooting ranges.


Free shooting on short distances as you know it from youtube videos where people shoot their A15s in full auto only exists for pistol shooting in Switzerland. For rifle shooting we standardly have military and sporting provided shooting ranges with metering systems and hit detection where you lie on the ground, use your rifle's standard bipod and fire at targets on 300+ meter distance ONLY by using the iron sights. It isn't comparable with shooting in the US. It's basically  sharpshooting and you need skills to hit at the centre of the target. 


To specify this: You can't carry around your rifle always and everywhere you want just like an accessory. But if you are going to the shooting range and go by train or bus or even if you want to buy your dinner in a supermarked after shooting you can do that with your rifle on your shoulders, that's no problem.


I also carried around my SG550 when I was 14 years old and I never got mistrusting glances by other people. 

cetsky33
cetsky33

Problem is that the criminally insane are running the country...Keep your powder dry!

MiloBendech
MiloBendech

In 2001 a disgruntled citizen opened fire with his army rifle inside a regional parliament, killing 14 and injuring 14 others — the only mass shooting in Switzerland’s recent history. 

UPDATE


In 2013 in the French-speaking village of Daillon, 100km (62 miles) from Geneva, a psychologically disturbed man opened fire on locals, killing three people and wounding two others. Police had already confiscated weapons from the gunman in 2005, after he had been placed in psychiatric care.

Inevitably, his actions prompted a fresh wave of debate in Switzerland about its relatively liberal gun laws.

electrotectic
electrotectic

46 people were murdered in Switzerland last year. Per person, it's tiny.

So of course, an extra 3, or 14 (!!) causes a national debate.

Switzerland can afford to debate tiny things and make refined, delicate improvements.

In the U.S., it's not tiny. It's a flood. 

Skibum4106
Skibum4106

@electrotectic  Correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the USA when they talk about Deaths by Gun they count all Suicides and Police shootings in those numbers.. 

zilti
zilti

@MiloBendech "

Inevitably, his actions prompted a fresh wave of debate in Switzerland about its relatively liberal gun laws." Did it? I didn't even know that happened... And I live in Switzerland.

Chedring
Chedring

Would the Swiss system work in the US? Sure, but why does it work so well for them? Probably because they have very few immigrants and most of the civilian population is white, so low gang rate and low chance of recruitment and development. This is literally one big hope for civilized society for the future.

KevinSpruill
KevinSpruill

@Chedring your one big hope is monoculture... a shunning of all cultures, groups, religions not yours? Is it your contention that a vast homogeneous society... one religion, one political philosophy, etc. - that will solve the problem? Tell me again why in cultures that fit your ideal - there is still violence?

CarlE.MottIII
CarlE.MottIII

@Chedring Because they are white? Didn't white folks have a problem in Serbia and Bosnia Herzegovina? No gangs? Ever hear of the Russian or Irish mafia? And I guess you know little of Switzerland a nation of 4 languages and 2 religions? Far from homogeneous by Euro standards. Well regulation works, especially in a well law abiding nation. It'd probably work in Japan too, and they've got the Yakuza.

electrotectic
electrotectic

@Chedring Very few immigrants? Your facts are utterly and completely wrong. Switzerland is 25% non-Swiss (check Wikipedia), yet it is still extremely safe. Something different is going than what you said.

pepe.felipe
pepe.felipe

@Chedring Well, there's around 25% of immigrants. That's not the reason that makes the system work. Actually, immigrants have the pretty much the same rights as Swiss citizens, included the right to own firearms. I'lll say that what makes the system work here is the fact that we care for each other, immigrant or Swiss, meaning that no one is left behind. Immigrants get help when they need it, as Swiss citizens do, exactly the same help. What does it translate into ? Mainly that there's no hopeless situation were your only option is to enroll in a gang or do crazy things. 


Beside this, every Swiss citizen considers his rifle as a tool to defend the country and his inhabitants. That includes defending immigrants in the country if needed. There's a big respect to the weapons because they're the tools that could keep us free from invasion, even if we have pretty good relations with surrounding countries :) We are grew up like this, that's why it works quite well in Switzerland. 


I'm not saying that everything is perfect in the country, there are obviously tensions in betweens Swiss citizens and immigrants, but people talk and when talking, you always get to a solution.


So, can it work in the US ? Of course, but then you'll have to import all the concept. That means helping the poorest people of the society to make a life. Give them the opportunity to study, get a job and thus avoiding having them into gangs. Will this stop mass shootings ? Maybe, not sure, but it will probably stop street shootings ... Question is are the US ready to do something like this, considering that most people in the US will call it communism ? Not sure ...


zilti
zilti

@Chedring Um, no... 25% of the inhabitants in Switzerland are immigrants.

JennWhitfordPalumbo
JennWhitfordPalumbo

Someone asked what the answer is. Look at who is committing the majority of gun crimes in this country. LIBERALS. The very scum who want to take away our rights are the ones  who abuse them. Guns aren't the problem. Liberals are.

MiloBendech
MiloBendech

@JennWhitfordPalumboI'm not sure where you got your information from because authorities don't keep records of  the political preference of people who commit gun crimes.

Rather than to rely on heresay or information it's better to go by the facts:

Here is a list of the massacres that occurred in the US last year.  It list the state, the dates, the number of people killed (4 or more innocent victims and it's on this list).

Although it doesn't say liberal or conservative, you can see whether the Red States or the Blue states have more gun massacres.  Generally speaking the Red states have more gun friendly legislation


12/1/13    Topeka    Kan.    Shooting    Family killing    4
11/23/13    Tulsa    Okla.    Shooting    Other    4
11/7/13    Jacksonville    Fla.    Shooting    Other    4
10/29/13    Callison    S.C.    Shooting    Family killing    5
10/28/13    Terrell    Texas    Shooting    Other    5
10/26/13    Phoenix    Ariz.    Shooting    Other    4
10/26/13    New York    N.Y.    Stabbing    Family killing    5
10/9/13    Paris    Texas    Shooting    Other    4
9/20/13    Rice    Texas    Shooting    Family killing    4
9/16/13    Washington    D.C.    Shooting    Public Killing    12
9/11/13    Crab Orchard    Tenn.    Shooting    Robbery/burglary    4
8/14/13    Oklahoma City    Okla.    Shooting    Family killing    4
8/7/13    Dallas    Texas    Shooting    Family killing    4
7/26/13    Clarksburg    W.Va.    Shooting    Other    4
7/26/13    Hialeah    Fla.    Shooting    Public Killing    6
6/7/13    Santa Monica    Calif.    Shooting    Public Killing    5
5/13/13    Fernley    Nev.    Shooting, Stabbing    Robbery/burglary    5
5/11/13    Waynesville    Ind.    Shooting    Other    4
4/28/13    Ottawa    Kan.    Shooting    Family killing    4
4/24/13    Manchester    Ill.    Shooting    Family killing    5
4/22/13    Federal Way    Wash.    Shooting    Family killing    4
4/18/13    Akron    Ohio    Shooting    Robbery/burglary    4
4/15/13    Boston    Mass.    Blunt force    Public Killing    4
3/13/13    Herkimer    N.Y.    Shooting    Public Killing    4
1/19/13    Albuquerque    N.M.    Shooting    Family killing    5
1/7/13    Tulsa    Okla.    Shooting    Robbery/burglary    4

electrotectic
electrotectic

@springsky I agree with EvilWayz. It's only right-wing states that have the mass murders. No indication of the politics of the killers themselves. Of course, they are all gun owners.

SeekerofKnowledge48
SeekerofKnowledge48

@andyvanm @MiloBendech Hitler and the Nazis repealed the Weapons Ban of 1929 and made it easier for German citizens to buy guns and get guns...so your point is what exactly. Oh by the way, when the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto smuggled guns in and used them to fight back against the Nazis (very brave mind you) 13,000 died after the Nazis evacuated their troops and bombed the ghetto. Guess how many Nazis died? 20. Unless the Jews also had planes, shells, tanks, trucks, bombs, and millions of guns and troops, they wouldn't have stood a chance. But that's impossible. So do your homework before you speak lies.

dabouv1
dabouv1

@JennWhitfordPalumbo @RyanTracey You are a true idiot. 

dabouv1
dabouv1

@JennWhitfordPalumbo @RyanTracey You are an idiot.  Guns aren't a liberal/conservative issue nor are they a he man/pansy issue.  Its a smart/stupid issue and I know what you are.  I own a bunch of guns.  Real guns that are used to hunt.  I don't need a semi automatic .223 to feel tough.  Its a crappy caliber not much good for anything.  If I had an intruder, I'd use my 12 gauge IF they got past my big dog.  If I wanted a rifle, I would want more knock down power than a .223. My police buddies don't like 9mm, they want more power suck as a .45.  I have owned guns for most of 50 years and grew up in the rural Midwest.  30 years ago, almost no one had a pistol and we seemed to do fine with bolt action rifles.  In fact, I quit my group hunting for coyotes when the mini 14's started to become popular because it attracted morons who weren't responsible.  Did I say you were an idiot? 

DinouDinou
DinouDinou

@MiloBendech - You're an idiot. Blacks commit 50% of homicides in the US and hispanics 25%. The vast majority are Obama voters. It's a MINORITY problem and also why Switzerland doesn't have a high crime rate. All the European countries who have been accepting refugees are experiencing higher crime rates as a result.

springsky
springsky

@JennWhitfordPalumbo WHERE  did you get that info from? It's a blatant lie perpetrated by the nutwings. Actually, the opposite is true. All the mass murderers have been Right-winged. go do your homework!

springsky
springsky

@JennWhitfordPalumbo WHERE  did you get that information? It's a blatant lie perpetuated by the nuts at Fox. Adcutally, the opposite is true. Most all of the mass murderers have identified as politifcally Right Winged!! Go do you homework!!

KevinSpruill
KevinSpruill

@DinouDinou that is a patent lie and thats clearly and easily debunked using the FBI crime statistics... sorry sparky, but lying to perpetuate your bigotry doesn't make it so... grow up. But by all means - if you have facts to back up your fantastic claim... g'head, we'll wait.

CarlE.MottIII
CarlE.MottIII

@DinouDinou Funny, but I've yet see one black or hispanic involved in a mass shooting....or woman for that matter. Just angry white men...and one Arab in 2009 Ft hood.

CarlE.MottIII
CarlE.MottIII

@JennWhitfordPalumbo Where did you get this unsubstantiated gem? Rush? From what I see most in these high profile, whack-job,  mass shooters seem to be apolitical, expressing no real interest in politics.

Dams
Dams

@JennWhitfordPalumbo @RyanTracey  I dont usually say this but hows about you go back to the kitchen or bedroom whichever one you're best at so the rest of us imaginary men can discuss issues with facts like adults 

CharlesThomas
CharlesThomas

@KevinSpruill He's actually correct about the stats.  Check out FBI.gov.  What he's wrong about is why those stats are what they are.

KevinSpruill
KevinSpruill

@JennWhitfordPalumbo - first, typing things in all caps, especially terms used as pejoratives such as "LIBERALS" does nothing to dissuade people from the notion that your full of crap. But I'll bite... please provide credible sourcing for that ludicrous claim (the liberals commit majority of gun crime) - we'll wait. As for the other part... no ones trying to take away your guns... your sense of victimization is showing... might want to get some therapy for that

EvilWayz
EvilWayz

@springsky looked on the internet, nothing to indicate that the most recent mass shooters were right wing.  If you have proof of this, I'd like to see it. 

sukotsuto
sukotsuto

@DinouDinou Funny you should say that, considering that they happen so much, the news no longer report them  - so if you're just going by what the typical news media are telling you, these crimes "don't exist". 


Whereas "crazy whitey with a gun" gets so much coverage since it doesn't happen as frequently - look at them cite the same few white mass shootings that happens every few years but never mention gang-related shootings in the news that happens EVERY MONTH.


Just like how the news would fixate on missing white women, but never mentioning missing minorities, since people pay more attention to whitey crimes - suspect or victim. No mention of that Peruvian girl in that Natalee Hollaway case back in 2005, for instance.


In the issue of guns, if your current understanding of a semi-automatic is thinking they shoot rapid fire like "machine guns", please refrain from gun issues altogether. We need to filter out idiots from any debate and leave it to reasonable, well-informed people who NEVER believe the news from its face value.

ThomasA.RussellSr.
ThomasA.RussellSr.

@CarlE.MottIII @DinouDinou  What about that spree a few years back, I think it was 2007 or 2008, A couple of African-Americans, one victim at a time in the north east. One driving, the other shooting out of a hole in the trunk. Black mass murderers. Just took their victims at random, one or two at a time.

andyvanm
andyvanm

@MiloBendech Gun Control Works...For Tyrants


In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915
to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up
and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from
1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend
themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to
1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971
to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975
to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in
the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or
hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and
property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding
citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too
late!

mynsplain
mynsplain

@DinouDinou It's a minority problem eh?  Well you do know that whites are the actual minority in this country now thanks to the influx of immigration.

pepe.felipe
pepe.felipe

@DinouDinou We don't have a high crime rate because we do treat immigrants with respect and give them opportunities to succeed in life. We have around 25% of immigrants in the country. Almost the double of any other European country around us and have way less crime rate ! You can't blame it on immigrants when the citizens are the guys who can change things. Give them a chance to be integrated in the country and things will change. What do you expect ? If your family was starving, won't you leave the country to try to get them a better life ? And if by doing so you arrive in a country were they give you no chance to improve your family life, won't you do everything to get them a better life ? Of course you will. And thus your kids will take example in you, and that will remain like this until somebody do something to change things. 


Skibum4106
Skibum4106

@sukotsuto @DinouDinou Pretty much every mass shooter in the USA was on Prescription anti depressants or they were suffering withdrawal symptoms from stopping to take them 

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@MiloBendech That's an extremely small number compared to total homicides of which ~90% are committed by criminals - drug, gang, related.  What you need to do is research the number of violent crimes mitigated by gun owners.  Hint: it's conservatively in the 10s of thousands per year...

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@JennWhitfordPalumbo The latest estimate is that those with concealed pistol licenses only account for less that 1/2 of 1% of the crime, most of the rest is urban, gang, and drug related. If every American gun suddenly disappeared and it was totally illegal to have a firearm it would only be a matter of days before the Mexican drug cartels expanded their gun running cottage industry to full blown gun running to criminals and gang members.  Law abiding citizens would be at the complete mercy of thugs.

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@GregSmith4 @KevinSpruill And almost all of those are in urban areas and are drug and gang related.  All of this violence has to do with poverty and a lack of education, not to mention a near 70% illegitimacy rate.  It would be nice to see liberals address the root cause of crime.  But the liberal politicians don't want poverty thwarted because those are their voting base - government cheese and empty promises for votes and campaign $$...

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@CarlE.MottIII @DinouDinou You do see multiple homicides, 3, 4, sometimes 5 or more, in the cities fairly often that are gang/grudge related.  True blacks tend not to shoot up schools and movie theaters, it's a white lunatic thing.  No amount of gun control is going to curb homicides with guns...

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@andyvanm @MiloBendech The first thing every tyrant in all of history ever does when controlling or conquering is to disarm everyone but their own armies...

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@dabouv1 @JennWhitfordPalumbo @RyanTracey A bolt action rifle would not be my choice for home defense.  I don't own an AR but I haven't seen anyone volunteering to stand in front of a .223, or a +P 9mm, or for that matter a .380 with modern hollow point ammo. The AR is a better self defense weapon in general than either a rifle or a shotgun... 

JoeHorenkamp
JoeHorenkamp

@springsky @JennWhitfordPalumbo Sorry Jen, but that's not true.  You need to do some research.  Most of these mass shootings are by people/kids from a Democrat background.  As for FOX, why do you think it is that FOX outdraws the entire cable liberal MSM put together?  You really think that collectively FOX viewers are dumber that the ones that watch Maddow and Schultz? 

Do you know who Prof. Gruber was talking about when he mentioned "stupid voters"?  Hint: It was Democrats...

zilti
zilti

@JennWhitfordPalumbo No, these aren't liberals, even if they call themselves liberal. Liberalism means prohibiting as few things as possible and having a government as tiny as possible.