India

Will India Tourism Be Tarnished by Attacks on Women?

By Krista MahrMarch 20, 20130

Altaf Qadri / AP

An Indian demonstrator, right, shouts slogans as a rickshaw carrying passengers rides past during a protest against the rape of a 7-year-old girl in New Delhi on March 1, 2013

India may have moved yet another rung down the ladder of desirable destinations for female travelers. Reports surfaced on Tuesday of a British woman injured after trying to escape out a window from the unwanted advances of a hotel manager in Agra, home of the Taj Mahal and the nation’s biggest tourist draw. The news came almost immediately after Indian police arrested six men suspected of raping a Swiss tourist, who was camping with her husband during a bike tour when the couple was attacked.

Female tourists — and Indian women — have been on alert since December, when a 23-year-old woman was brutally raped aboard a moving bus in New Delhi and eventually died of her wounds. Security in the capital has been visibly ramped up since then. Barricades are now set up on busy streets at night, manned by police who, with varying degrees of diligence, keep an eye on passing cars. But reports of egregious attacks on Indian and foreign women alike are still ubiquitous in the country’s media outlets, raising the question of when, if ever, these measures and tough new laws aimed at deterring sex crimes are going to start working.

(MORE: Another High-Profile Rape in India Highlights Ongoing Problem)

Few are holding their breath. Instead, tips are circulating on travel forums, urging female tourists not to travel alone, wear revealing clothing, drink or smoke in public, or be overly friendly. The U.S. State Department travel advisory to India now includes a long warning to women that urges them to “observe stringent security precautions, including avoiding use of public transport after dark without the company of known and trustworthy companions, restricting evening entertainment to well-known venues, and avoiding isolated areas when alone at any time of day.”

It’s a p.r. nightmare for India’s tourist industry, which sees over 6.5 million visitors a year. Female tourists have been the subjects of high-profile attacks in India before, most notably in 2008 when a 15-year-old British girl was raped and left for dead on a beach in the resort area of Goa. (The crime was later featured in a Bollywood film.) And authorities this week have been quick to point out that tourists are subject to crime in any country, and that compared with some other locations, violent crime in India is relatively rare.

(VIDEO: The New Delhi Rape: TIME Talks to Suspect’s Family)

It’s understandable for officials to feel piqued that India is being singled out for a few rare incidents that happen in other places too. But the truth is — and this is hardly something limited to the experience of foreign women — India feels different from a lot of other places. Incidences of rape are higher in the U.S. than in India, but the vigilance with which many urban women conduct their day-to-day lives feels more constant and more intense, in no small part because of the unspoken understanding that there may not be anybody there to help you if you get into trouble.

That’s a reality that many Indian women live with. And even though changing that reality has been the topic of thousands of public and private conversations since December, it’s still probably not something most women who visit India fully grasp. At least not until they read about incidents like the ones this week, which bring home the simple and depressing fact that no one is immune to a vacuum of law and order.

It’s hard to say whether these events will rub off on the government’s hypersuccessful Incredible India tourist campaign in any lasting way. But if tourism officials really want to help their industry, they should stop fixating on how statistics get spun and start demanding that their valued customers deserve the right to be well protected, and feel safe and comfortable, just like all the women in this country do.

MORE: New Delhi’s Women Problem: What Does It Take to Make a Society Safe?

PHOTOS: A Rape Sparks Violent Protests and Demands for Justice

100 comments

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jvaishnav47

1 Like

Off let rape cases particularly on foreign female tourist positively shall tarnish India image.

Now Foreign tourists have stopped going out at night hours, Tourist are afraid to stay alone even in hotels,

It is but natural , no foreign female tourists shall visit India since there is always a fear to get victimized.

AnnaRiley-Pate

1 Like

Women are in danger of being raped and assaulted all over the world. The problem isn't individual countries. It is the collective responses to the crimes, and the dialogue that surrounds them. Until human beings as a whole change the dialogue, the incidences will not change, and myself and millions of other women will have to continue to fear it.

MorningMist

2 Like

Authorities are right. I've lived in the US for nearly 9 years and I remember when I didn't have a car, I avoided unlit areas and bad neighborhoods, didn't take public transportation at night. Some female students have been raped in their own apartments. When as a student, foreign students were very regularly mugged, shot and killed. Yet it rarely makes it news and hasn't sent a "travel advisory against studying in US Universities". It has never been safe for women to travel alone on the streets at night in the US. Why on earth would anyone think that this would be different in India is anyone's guess. A PhD student in Duke University was killed execution style when he walked back to his dorm at 11 pm. The authorities didn't do anything until a Blond blue eyed student president was killed by the same piece of crap. Authorities in India are at least trying to get justice for the tourists. But here in America Tourists or foreign students rarely get any justice because Police here mistakenly think that foreign students "don't pay taxes hence we don't owe them anything". Which is false, as foreign students pay nearly 40,000 + taxes to the United States economy. The hypocrisy is kind of disheartening. But it's OK. Over time India will probably clean up their act while America will still continue to be unsafe for anyone who doesn't live in gated communities.

OliviaToner

1 Like

Why would anyone in right state of mind put her/his family in danger?. After effects of such a horrible incedent would alter your life forever, meanings of living will not be the same.

Robert2011GB

It seems that Indians believe that everything is always the fault of foreigners, nothing will ever improve in India until and unless Indians start to take responsibility for their own actions.

As for those Indians who so loudly and vociferously defend India from any kind of criticism, most of them seem to live outside of India, it's so easy to be proud of India when you live in Los Angeles, New York or London.

NandaKishoreN

@Robert2011GB If U stop blaming our culture, our religion and call the entire society barbaric and criminal. We'll not require to defend ourselves so much.

Having said that it's incontrovertible that India became a poor country under the British Rule. Muslim Invasions of Md.Ghazini and Md.Ghori BEFORE the Muslim rulers established their Kingdom in India was another rampant ROBBERY of Indian Wealth, which was taken to foreign lands.

Remember the Kohinoor Diamond which is presently in UK?

Leave the History. Today all those bloody industries which cannot be opened in USA because they are hazardous to the Environment there, are being deported to India. And our poor villagers in remote areas are being thrown out of their lands to establish those dangerous Industries.

And Ur dear USA Govt, knowing that Pakistan is going to use the money for terrorism is providing trillions of dollars, which are used against India to spread violence and terrorism.

Do U need more examples to prove that Western Govts are at the root of problems in India?

stars

@NandaKishoreN @Robert2011GB

Why all the dirty industries are in developing countries like India? Is a good question, of course its fault of US but roots of problem is Indian government by allowing it to happen and giving right to those industries (mostly through corruption). Its easy to pinpoint fault of others what about fault of Indian government? First try to change your politicians before blaming the whole world.

NandaKishoreN

@stars @Robert2011GB

Agreed that Indian politicians are at fault. But developing economies are being subjected to all sorts of compulsions in the name of liberalization crap by the Western Developed world. That's to benefit the capitalists of Ur countries. It's those treaties which are creating terrible problems to the people of developing countries. It's a way of making the people of Developing world more poor and making the people of Developed countries more rich.

@NandaKishoreN

MorningMist

1 Like

@Robert2011GB Or maybe those are the ones who read the Times. Ever thought of that genius. Also they are the one's who know that not all happens to be rosy for foreigners in Los Angeles, New York or London.

Anurag

1 Like

For all the people here going oooo India is such a hell hole and OMG why is this country even allowed to exist, i just say you are narrow minded hypocritical fools. The only difference between India and other countries is at this time rape is the biggest social issue here and so gets highlighted more. Whereas in your countries rape has become such a mundane nuisance that it does not register on your mind more than say B&E would. If you are american there is the example of Steubenville case, so are you going to stop your girls from living their lives.

There is a lot talk abt caste system and India cultural indifference toward women, i know it has been our burden in the past but we are working albeit slowly to rectify that but we only had independence for 65 yrs. Whereas America has had independence for 250 yrs and still has not gotten rid of the most basic and evil practice of racism. Its all perspective and we all have our albatrosses so dont vilify entire country and its heritage for actions of few.

NandaKishoreN

@Anurag Caste system has been legally abolished at the time of drafting the constitution. Society is changing. We've almost forgot that castes existed in cities. But thanks to VOTE-BANK Politics our dear politicians brought everything back.

stars

@NandaKishoreN @Anurag

Caste system was legally abolished but was strongly ingrained in the society. In cities people mixed among different castes outside home but when comes to marrying and close social contacts there is still big barrier. One goes for dinner with lower caste (achuut) in restaurant but feels awkward to invite them at home or when get invited.

NandaKishoreN

@stars So, what do U expect even we can't marry according to our likes and dislikes? Do we have to force ourselves into some marriage to do social service.

That's ridiculous. Besides there are many inter-caste and inter-religious mariages happening out of love in modern times. But one can't be compelled into a marriage.

And there's no concept of achuut in cities. Legally when all the people are treated equally that's the end of it. U don't have to talk about what we do inside our houses.

@NandaKishoreN @Anurag

dingdong

1 Like

@NandaKishoreN

Hey lets just blame some foreign terrorist of the conspiracy while we are at it...... :-)

NandaKishoreN

@dingdong What?

@NandaKishoreN

powerandprivilege

I am Indian. I had hoped to visit various parts of the country with my American friends. Now, after learning how male friends are beaten while the women are gang raped, I have permanently deleted India from my plans. It is a country run by thugs and hooligans.

EliadesPastor

India was not female friendly in the 1960's when we were back-packing through Europe and Asia. They have a poor social model for women and it is becoming more agressive.

blushy_arra

OMG. a month ago i was planning to go to India alone for a vacation since i used to travel alone to many places. considering these incidents and as far as my femininity is concerned it put me to decision of not going to India

ColeAllenJr.

1 Like

India is known for its massive Poverty and Rapes it is not a tourist spot any ways.

CrossWinds

Who would want to take their wife or girlfriend to India.............No Thanks.........

JamesSmith

I can't imagine why anyone would visit India voluntarily even without these rape incidents. I suppose if you had family there you might want to visit but other than that I don't see the attraction of visiting an overpopulated third world cesspool.

frankwall1965

Quite a lot of my female friends have travelled across India without problems but the events of the past few weeks would make me think twice about going there if I was female. Still, you have to remember that this is a massive country with a huge population and this kind of stuff happens. At least the Indian police were very quick to find and arrest the people involved. Hopefully the incidents were isolated and the media storm will blow over, restoring India's reputation.

stars

1 Like

@frankwall1965

In india (and many other countries as well) when there is lot of political and media pressure they just catch some people and not always real culprits. So I am not sure if police did a good job or just found some scapegoats. I hope they are real culprits.

MANGUSA

I am from India and residing in USA. So i can relate both countries pretty well being lived decades in both countries. In India, you can be raped irrespective of how careful you are. It doesn't matter whether you are with your male husband/friend. There are thousands of gang rapes happen all the time and only a handful of them get reported. Either the victim and whole family is killed or the victim never reports the incident because of the fear and also police in general are not sympathetic towards the victim. If you give few thousands of rupees to Police you can get away very easily. In US every rape gets reported and 99.9% of the victims get justice which makes it too many rapes but when you account for the 90% un-reported rapes in India they are relatively low percentage.

MorningMist

@MANGUSA Actually 99.9% of the victims don't get justice in US. I don't know where you get that. Only 25% of the reported cases result in an arrest. Which isn't the same as conviction. and only a fraction of the 25% result in conviction. That's a far cry from 99.9%.

Also Indian's have NO problem facing their own problems. They just have a hard time taking it from people who don't seem to see that the situation isn't any better in their own countries, esp in the US and UK. If someone said " 700 million people in India earn less than 2 dollars a day" compared to the US, you wont find a lot of people decrying it. India is VERY poor. India does have a bad record for their own women's rights. But when people make it out that somehow you should be able to camp anywhere and not get into trouble, I dare you to do something like this in the south west side of Atlanta and let's see how long you live. And let's see if you get justice too.

stars

@MANGUSA

I am happy you accept the problems in India, accepting problem is first step towards finding solution. If we do not accept rapes as severe problem we will never be able to reach proper solution.

SLG

3 Like

These comments defending India from criticism, while pointing the finger at other countries that yes, have problems (all countires have problems) reminds me of an experience I had while living in India. An Indian man had been assigned to help us secure adequate housing, and he asked if there was anything that we would like changed with the apartment we had. There were so many things that were different than what I was used to - but the one thing that was really difficult to live with that I hoped could be changed was the straight pipes used under the sinks. In India, in 2008!, they used straight pipes to drain the sinks and I asked if an S-curve could be put in under the drains. I had to draw a picture to show what I wanted, because the concept was completely foreign. Yes, the smell of the sewer came up from the drains, and the Indians typically placed mothballs in the drains to cover the smell and keep the roaches back. Ugh. I could not get them to change the drains to S-curves because nothing like that was available. No kidding. In addition the city of over a million people I lived in had no municipal garbage service. One million people with no way to collect and contain waste.

I am going to begin to call this tendency for Indians to defend India from thoughtful criticism "straight pipe syndrome." ;)

Anurag

1 Like

We live in a cruel and indifferent society and to say one society or country is more or less safe than the other is a bit naive thinking as far i see it. Reality is you are only safe till you are not and it doesn't matter which part of world you are.

I get people trying to protect the name of India and its very noble but i hope they do realize that there is clearly something really wrong in this country even if the numbers are kind to us. The biggest problem in India seems to be unaccountability of people in power specially the police who are rarely held accountable for their actions or rather lack of it. Atleast in other countries you can sue the police in case of wrong doing and hope for some recourse, in India asking help from police is sometimes the worse thing to you can do.

As for the people who do not wish to come to India well thats your choice but if you do, it never hurts to have a common sense. We live at a time when it is sheer madness to be gullible fools. Don't we tell our kids not to take candy from strangers or not to get in cars with strangers, why should be any different for adults. As they say self help is best help, carry a knife is you have to for crying out loud. Cant let fear run our life for us.

SmartASS

80% of world's porn originate from the US and is distributed to the rest of the world. Thats a culture that treats women with respect and dignity. To not give some interesting ideas to foreign people when you visit their land, May be US should stop selling porn ?

ruggedtoast

@SmartASS If you can't tell the difference between pornography and rape you need to take a look at yourself. And I'm not American so don't much care either way, I was responding to your statistics which compared the US to two developing countries.

ruggedtoast

1 Like

India is not a completely safe destination for foreign women to travel alone to and it never has been. I personally know two women who were mobbed and sexually assaulted in crowds as tourists, and have heard plenty of anecdotal stories. I also know ladies who've travelled solo in India with no problems and love it, but the balance of probabilities points towards trouble unless you are cautious.

When I have travelled in India with women I found fending off the continual unwanted attention for them utterly draining. It's usually dressed up as a pretense to stand too close and try and sell something, or ask about where you're from, or knocking on your hotel door constantly to ask if you need anything, or a million other things; but its pervasive and mostly unrelenting.

It is by no means all Indian men, but there are a billion Indians and its certainly enough of them to cause a problem if you intend to travel around the interior. Predominantly its poorly educated guys who have somewhat strange ideas about women in general and western women in particular.

I wouldn't tell anyone not to go to India as its unlike any other place, but the maxim from pre the Incredible India days is still true. It really isn't a great place to go for a woman who wants to strap on a backpack and wander around alone; and tourists in general should stay well away from cycling, hiking and camping outside of monitored national parks.

I feel really horrible for the Swiss couple but they were horribly misinformed at best if they thought what they were doing was a good idea.

SmartASS

18,359 rape cases were registered in India in the first three quarters of this year while in the US, 93,934 and in South Africa 54,926 rape cases were registered respectively. Enough said.

sahanaibhat

1 Like

@SmartASS why are you comparing india to usa or any other country? I am from India and I am ashamed of so many rape cases happening in India. It's sad.. Being an Indian myself I have faced situations of staring, lewd comments from our own community. So think of improving the situation rather than comparing it with some useless statistics.. Tell me if we can walk alone in India without gathering unwanted attention. I think it is very unsafe for women. I know lots of incidents with my friends and others. So think of improving the situation rather than attacking other countries.. No I am not pro USA or any other country. Women should be safe wherever they are and unless its with their consent not a single man gets the right to act like a moron!!

NandaKishoreN

@sahanaibhat Well done! look what Ur comment implied. Despite the fact that whatever U said is right, these foreigners are attacking and blaming everything about being Indian. They are calling all the men rapists. Do U agree with that?

@SmartASS

NandaKishoreN

@sahanaibhat @SmartASS

Yes, I'm not denying. We've strongly condemn all sorts of sexual abuse. Unreported cases are a big problem. Immediate reforms in Police Department and creating awareness at constable and inspector levels are being strongly recommended.

Apparently our Govt and System are a bit lethargic. Pressure from different corners might make them get up and do something.

But here in comments I expressed my concern about some prejudiced lot simply trashing the Indian culture and calling the entire country criminals.

@NandaKishoreN

sahanaibhat

1 Like

@NandaKishoreN @sahanaibhat @SmartASS My comment was just to @SmartASS . He pulled up statistics.. Of course in India so many cases are not reported. Think of the women who are not educated enough to defend themselves. Where do they go??

sahanaibhat

2 Like

@NandaKishoreN @sahanaibhat @SmartASS I was just giving some constructive criticism. We know this country better than they do.. We should actually be sorry for the people who were mistreated..

NandaKishoreN

@sahanaibhat @NandaKishoreN @SmartASS Yes, but people like U when they list out these things like that these westerners blame the entire country and the whole civilization.

So we need to be careful in wording our brilliant criticism of what's wrong with India.

sahanaibhat

@NandaKishoreN @SmartASS : My comment did not imply anything against anyone.. I really don't care what people might say. Like we have a view of Westerners from Hollywood movies or from news, that they are so and so, they view us too, by the news that is published to the world. But there are lots of problems in India which needs to be addressed. Corruption to rapes to abuse of women. Why do we call India the largest democracy? Girls were hit in some cities because they were in pubs. That becomes dictatorship instead of democracy. There is some truth in some of the things told by others. We get hurt because it is our country . Yes!!! But why did it reach such a stage? Because of our lack of dealing with the problem. Poverty and illiteracy is rampant in India and the values we talk of , what values exactly are those?? Male to female ratio is very less in India. Urban India might understand but we have a huge rural population which still has lots of problems. Don't get me started on female problems in our country. It is hard to see the other side of the coin, might be because you are a guy and you don't face those problems. But we do!!

stars

@sahanaibhat @SmartASS

Completely agree, I am sure Smartass is male and tries to ignore problem rather than looking for solution.

Shadrack

@SmartASS It's not enough said. In the US, approximately 59% of rapes go unreported. In India, where there's little attempt by the criminal justice system to bring perpetrators to justice absent huge public outcry, where marital rape is illegal yet still widely practiced and accepted, where honour killing exists, what do you suppose the percentage of unreported rape is in India? Statistics don't tell the whole story at all.

SmartASS

@Shadrack Its obvious that all rape cases arent reported anywhere. But atleast this is a baseline we can measure with, rather than measuring against your wild imagination. Now even if u consider 90% (happy?) of rape cases arent reported in India ie 183590 rape cases instead of 18359, how do you think it works when you put in the population numbers of 1.2B and 300m?

stars

@SmartASS @stars @ruggedtoast

I think you are not as smart as you claim to be. Please read following before you comment more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape

SmartASS

@stars @SmartASS @ruggedtoast To help your lightning fast mind, The numbers given above are only for rape cases.

ruggedtoast

@SmartASS @ruggedtoast Because the US is much better at getting women to come forward after a sexual assault than India is.

With a 24% arrest rate for rape the US is not great at encouraging women to come forward, but is worlds apart from India. A country where just recently a Swiss woman who was allegedly gangs raped had a round trip of 140 miles to try and find a hospital that could treat a rape victim, and was later paraded in front of dozens of photographers with a bag over her head.

stars

@SmartASS @ruggedtoast

Well not as rape but as sexual assaults or molestation. In India it is taken as normal right?

SmartASS

@ruggedtoast it s the case everywhere uncle. you think groping and similar things are reported as rape in the US? if not why the rape numbers are so high?

ruggedtoast

1 Like

@SmartASS @Shadrack Reported rape cases in India are almost entirely meaningless. Groping and similar invasions are unlikely to be reported as a crime or even considered as one if they were. Some women are afraid of the police due to anecdotal reports of women being molested in police stations at worst, or completely ignored or defamed at best.

Anything involving family members is invisible.

SLG

1 Like

This is more complex that just violence against women. I see these rapes as a form of mental dis-ease from an unhealthy social system.

I have lived in India as a female American Expat, and I experienced corrupt police, sexism, and unwanted advances from men. As an American female, there is media-promoted vision of the American sexually-driven female (sex sells), and Indian men buy into this false idea. Also, India faces a huge problem of unemployed uneducated young men and fewer young women, due to the overwhelming preference of male offspring and selective abortion of females. In India, marriages are arranged between families based on astrology, caste, and resources - but rarely on love. It was very sad to me to see so many men who were resigned to never to know the joy of having a marriage or children, as they had no dowry, so they knew they would never marry. This was very strange and sad to me, as Americans feel free to marry for love alone. Hindu marriages are for life and there is no divorce, again this dooms many people, usually women, to unhappiness when the arranged marriage is abusive. I saw protests with hundreds of angry young men campaigning for the right to an education, in a country where there are only a few slots, and they are quickly filled with the children of parents who can bribe an official if the young person's grades are not top-notch.

In addition, India is the top country with citizens with the largest amount of assets in Swiss bank accounts. What this means is that India is hemorrahaging tax dollars that could be used to better the social situation.

Some ideas: Raise the value of girls by calling on all religious and political leaders to champion the female sex as equal to boys. Limit the amount of funds an Indian citizen can hold in offshore accounts. Shame those who shirk taxation, while championing those who go beyond the call of duty to their fellow citizens. Reduce corruption through increasing programs like Anti-Corruption Bureau 800# in India. Build more education centers, and allow for more Indian women and men to get an education, especially the poor. Discourage arranged marriage, because it treats women like commodities. I saw young girls going to the doctor to be checked to make sure they were virgins, thus assuring a greater bride-price for their families. Yes, these are old systems, but these systems can be modernized gradually.

SLG

1 Like

I am going to begin to call this tendency for Indians to defend India from thoughtful criticism "straight pipe syndrome."

NandaKishoreN

@SLG Straight pipesyndrome. Wow! height of racism.

Robert2011GB

1 Like

@SLG You'll find that the Indians who blindly defend India from criticism are the ones who live outside India. They love India so much when they live in New York or London.

NandaKishoreN

@Robert2011GB @SLG For Ur kind information I live in HYDERABAD, in Andhra Pradesh in India.

stars

@Robert2011GB @SLG

Love is blind. They go India for holidays and live in expensive area and has no idea what reality is.... I feel sorry for them-

marsbzlightyear

1 Like

@SLG As an Indian-origin person, I find the behavior of the Indian guys here defending the culture at all costs disgusting. Its also surprising because when you follow the comment section in an Indian news-site like TimesofIndia, almost everyone is finger-pointing at ourselves rather than blaming others. Its as if the people outside India are more likely to blindly defend their country rather than acknowledge the problems.

NandaKishoreN

@SLG Here's another statesman who uses the opportunity to see everything wrong with the Indian Culture and Society. Great!

SLG

Why don't you be brave enough to offer suggestions?

NandaKishoreN

@stars @NandaKishoreN @sahanaibhat Understood what U want to say. But didn't understand WHY U want to say it.

What are all those agitations since that poor girls rape in delhi, across the cities and towns about? Is it not accepting the problem? People are putting pressure on GOVT for strict laws and stringent action. People are using all sorts of means to spread awareness. What is that all about?

All we are saying is that we have problems, we are up to solving them. Please don't isolate the entire culture and the population.

NandaKishoreN

@stars @NandaKishoreN @sahanaibhat Many guys have come out these days in protest of sexual abuse towards women. Nobody in India is brushing anything under the carpet. It might be Ur greatest wish to show India as the most barbaric country so that one day U may get a chance to destroy it completely.

NandaKishoreN

@stars @NandaKishoreN @pondy107 @SmartASS @SLG Wonder which era's movies are U talking about.

stars

@NandaKishoreN @sahanaibhat

Not all Indian men are rapists but one bad apple destroys whole apple. So what I want to say is try to bring culprit out and say okay we have problems in our society and we try to change it. Not saying "one rape does not matter and anyway it happens everywhere so is not so special, why is the media making such a huge deal"

stars

@NandaKishoreN @sahanaibhat

You are a guy so you do not understand women's problem. Try to understand problem and solve the problem, do not try to brush it under the carpet.

stars

@NandaKishoreN @stars @pondy107 @SmartASS @SLG

For example? Item songs are only in bollywood and not in hollywood. Rapes are common theme in Bollywood movies. What commercialisation you are talking about?

NandaKishoreN

@sahanaibhat

I was responding to Mr./Ms.Stars about clothes and Items Songs.

A woman must have the right to wear what she wants. It's barbaric to give suggestions about dress-code. Dancing to whatever song U want might be a freedom of expression.

But onscreen Item-Songs are mere objectification of Woman. There's absolutely no freedom of expression in that.

@NandaKishoreN @SmartASS

sahanaibhat

1 Like

@NandaKishoreN @sahanaibhat Yes I am one of those and why should I not? I did not blame nay culture, dude!! Every culture has its own problems. So I am saying everyone to deal with their own cultures.. I didn't say all Indian Men are rapists , of course not!! Is that even possible??

My comment was just for @SmartASS who said something about western civilization and their influence. Stop pointing fingers when we have a loophole in our own system.. People generally tend to blame others a lot for their own problems and shortcomings..

NandaKishoreN

@sahanaibhat So, even, U must be one of those who danced to the tunes. Or some of Ur friends or relatives might be those moms who taught Sheila Ki Jawani to their 5 yr old daughters. So whom are U blaming. Does it mean all Indian men are rapists. Does it mean Indian culture is the worst in the whole world.

Aren't U an Indian, don't U know thousands and millions of Indians upset with what's happening and trying to change the society?

sahanaibhat

1 Like

@NandaKishoreN @stars @pondy107 @SmartASS @SLG you think by girls covering up rapes wont happen in India?? Hmmmm.. I might wear a salwar and go to the street and still get lots of comments and lewd behavior from guys. Oh please and when the whole country dances to the tunes of Sheila ki Jawani , don't tell me anyone is condemning anything.

NandaKishoreN

@stars @pondy107 @SmartASS @SLG

We do condemn objectification of woman in item songs in movies. But thanks to Commercialization by Western Countries, today our producers are going for all sorts of wrong practices to mint money.

@NandaKishoreN

stars

@NandaKishoreN @pondy107 @stars @SmartASS @SLG

Do you know where is the biggest and worst red light district in the world? Mumnai. Women are taken advantage all over the world but there they are treated worse than animals.

About cheerleading well I am not big fan of it, but what about dancing actress in India. Most of the Indian actresses are not famous for acting but for wearing skimpy clothes, sexy dances and bathing in flimsy sari right? Do not say you do not watch bollywood movies. Bollywood movies highlights and even cherish the male dominance, women as sex object and rape...

stars

@pondy107 @stars @SmartASS @SLG

There is disparity with male and female all over the world but most of countries recognise this and are fighting against it, and accepting it as norm!!

Also the disparity is not so high as in India. Saying dumb blond is not like burning wife for dowry.

pondy107

@SLG"Yes, these are old systems, but these systems can be modernized gradually" - If by that you mean Indians should start obsessing about their looks and treat women solely as sex objects I don't think India need that kind of modernization. Indians should preserve those aspects of their culture that extoll the virtues of equality while reminding both genders the virtues of modesty and temperance. Both men and women in India should be reminded to focus more on honing their skills and imbibing knowledge while shying away from obsessing over their physical appearance. India should not modernize the American way. We don't need 50% divorce rates, teenage pregnancies, teenagers on contraceptives, rampant drug use and psychologically ill-adjusted children owing to them being raised in broken families. That's the American way and India needs no part of it.

pondy107

@SLG "Build more education centers, and allow for more Indian women and men to get an education, especially the poor. " - I am sure that America requires more affirmative action for minorities on the lines of Indian "quotas". America's wealth is disproportionately held by her white people at the detriment of everyone else. This needs to change. More minorities in America should have college and school positions reserved for them.

"Discourage arranged marriage, because it treats women like commodities." - As opposed to western culture, films and porn where women are not degraded and treated like subhuman sex objects ?? Why is it that women are coerced by society to look beautiful while all a man needs to do is work or study hard ?? Why is it that women are forced into using expensive chemicals, turn anorexic, get plastic surgery and do anything possible to change the way they look ? Are they not being treated like commodities in the west ?

"I saw young girls going to the doctor to be checked to make sure they were virgins, thus assuring a greater bride-price for their families. " - As annoyingly primitive as this might be, it is also extremely anecdotal. I can trot out examples of american teenagers resorting to having anal sex to preserve their virginity. Such tenuous arguments are best left to the teenagers in question !!

pondy107

@SLG "Raise the value of girls by calling on all religious and political leaders to champion the female sex as equal to boys." - Indians have been doing this for as long as white people have been telling each other that black people are equal to whites. Has that worked in America ? Are black people not discriminated against today ? Isn't housing and school segregation today worse than ever before ?

"Limit the amount of funds an Indian citizen can hold in offshore accounts. Shame those who shirk taxation, while championing those who go beyond the call of duty to their fellow citizens. Reduce corruption through increasing programs like Anti-Corruption Bureau 800# in India." - People who avoid taxes in India do so secretly out of fear of being punished by the government or out of shame. Tax evasion is not something glamorous that people show off about. Indian citizens hold less money in offshore accounts than americans hold in the Bahamas, the Cayman islands and other tax havens. If all those rich american whites had brought the money into the country, the taxes from that could've been used to educate poor black and mexican children.

SmartASS

@stars @pondy107 @SLG

The idea of love in our country is different uncle.

Its not something you fall into.. Its something you choose to do.. Thats why you people have this idea.. Oh I dont feel the love anymore.. I must divorce and "find" love somewhere else.

SmartASS

@pondy107 @stars @SmartASS @SLG women's salary for the same job is 70% of that of men in US. Explain that people. May be because woman are first tier citizens?

pondy107

1 Like

@SLG "Hindu marriages are for life and there is no divorce, again this dooms many people, usually women, to unhappiness when the arranged marriage is abusive" - The hindu divorce act was passed in 1955. Hindus celebrated 50 years of divorce in 2005. You need to get your facts right. Domestic abuse in love marriages in the US and Europe is just as big a problem as it is in India.

"In addition, India is the top country with citizens with the largest amount of assets in Swiss bank accounts. What this means is that India is hemorrahaging tax dollars that could be used to better the social situation." - True. Just like America treats her blacks and hispanics like second-class citizens while spending trillions of dollars on spreading democracy in the Middle east. All countries lose sight of their priorities.

NandaKishoreN

@pondy107 @stars @SmartASS @SLG Let me add the worst is cheerleaders. When men are in the middle of the action these girls are made to stand at the side and jump around. That's considered a great achievement.

But how much we guys are going to sit here and point out fingers. How much hatred we can spread? What makes the Western Population spill so much venom against India?

pondy107

@stars @SmartASS @SLG - don't all countries have problems with women being treated as second class citizens ? Are women in the west not treated as sex objects ? Why is it that the "dumb blonde" stereotype exists only for women ? Isn't sexual harassment an all too real happening in western workplaces ? Do all countries need to have the exact same problems ? Is it not shameful that american teenagers are put on birth control when they turn 13 and many end up pregnant and having to skip school ? Isn't it shameful that America reported 100,000 rapes in 2012 and American films and porn regularly depict women as nothing other than sex objects ? Isn't it true that domestic abuse in America is alarmingly high ?

NandaKishoreN

@pondy107 @stars @SLG It's just that they don't want to see any good in India.

pondy107

@stars @SLG - I don't see why westerners are so surprised that arranged marriages can work. They worked for millenia in all cultures. Indians living in cities today have adapted arranged marriages into modern culture. There is no pressure or coercion. People decide to marry prospective men/women whom they feel would be "a good fit". The physical attributes matter, but the emotional, financial and social compatibility matter more (if the decision is made intelligently). A well thought out, carefully planned arranged marriage will last just as long as a love marriage (probably longer !). Indian men and women learn to love each other after marriage and forgive their faults and compromise. Instances of domestic abuse are rampant in the US and western cultures where men and women only marry for love. The instances may be the same 5% so that point is moot.

NandaKishoreN

@SmartASS @SLG Men and Women will be glad to fix our country. Unless U see everything in magnifying glasses and live with a sole intention of defaming India and spilling venom. Only if U treat our culture as a culture and Indians as human beings.

pondy107

@SLG "It was very sad to me to see so many men who were resigned to never to know the joy of having a marriage or children, as they had no dowry, so they knew they would never marry" - as opposed to unemployed young Spaniards or hedonistic young european and american men who are convinced that marriage and fatherhood are frightfully expensive and/or depressing to go through. Europe and America have fertility rates far below replacement level, which means millions of europeans and americans aren't marrying or having children, probably because they don't want to be tied down.. or because capitalism concentrates wealth at the very top of the pyramid leaving a large base of the population in the lurch. They are forced to struggle and suffer if they want to marry and raise kids while the rich guys at the top can have multiple mistresses and children.

"This was very strange and sad to me, as Americans feel free to marry for love alone." - Seriously ?? Such naivete !!! Americans "fall in love" with people they find attractive... not with those they find compatible. The average american marries his high school sweetheart and is already divorced once by the time he/she is 30 ! Some love that is... Can't even last a decade. The average Indian marriage lasts a little over 40 years. The reason american marriages fail at such epidemic rates is because the american social system of falling in love with someone solely based on physical attributes is deeply flawed. Indians know that. Indians know that looks are not as important as a college degree, a stable job, good character and a kind heart.

stars

@pondy107 @SLG

How much wives stay with their husbands for love and how many stays behind because of helplessness:

- of shame

- not knowing where to go

- parents not accepting them back

- threat to life

- economic dependency

It might be 5% but in total count number its huge ....

pondy107

@SLGIn India, marriages are arranged between families based on astrology, caste, and resources - but rarely on love - as opposed to the US and in most western societies where socio-economic compatibility rarely matters but people "fall in love at first sight" after "dating" for 2 weeks, get pregnant and never marry or marry and get divorced before they hit 10 years (the average american marriage lasts 8 years.). We Indians feel very sad when we see single mothers or pregnant teenagers in America and all over Europe where marraiges no longer happen and even if they do are seldom between compatible partners but more between people who think their mutual physical attraction alone is a good foundation for a long term relationship between two adults. If India's social system is so abominable and if arranged marriages are such a travesty, why is India's divorce rate is 10 times lower ?? Are we to believe that 300 million men and women are suffering in silence ?? Or could it be that like humans have been doing for millenia, Indians fall in love with their spouse after marriage ?

stars

@SmartASS @SLG

If your country did not need fixing why all your MPs now are busy changing laws.

Can you give me examples of other country:

where wives and daughter in law are burnt/killed for dowry.

where girls are killed even before they are born.

Where girls are left out of school to cook and clean and boys goes to school.

Daughters have to eat leftovers after son.

pondy107

@SLG

"Corrupt police, sexism, and unwanted advances from men" - are you saying Indian women in the US or UK or anywhere else in Europe don't see this in the West ?.

If sexism and sexual harassment can be explained away by India's unemployment rates then I guess America's high unemployment and 50 million people living below the poverty line explains why America reported over 100,000 rapes in 2012, is a hotbed of drug-related violence and has more prisoners than any other country on earth..

If this single rape and a few others before that can be blamed on fewer young women, due to the overwhelming preference of male offspring and selective abortion of females, why did America report over 100,000 rapes in 2012 ?? Does hollywood and the american porn industry's portrayal of women in the most unflattering light possible have anything to do with those rapes ?? Or is it a degenerate culture ?

SmartASS

@SLG woman you dont have numbers to prove your point. So you talk just random sh.t . Fix your country first and then talk bad abt others.

SLG

@SmartASS Don't feed the troll.

SmartASS

@SLG Woman, why dont you give the suggestions to your own country first? It is obvious that percapita rapists are more in your country than anywhere else.