Losing Pakistan: An Insider’s Look at How the U.S. Deals With Its Ally

TIME talks to Vali Nasr, a close adviser of the late Richard Holbrooke, Obama’s senior envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan

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One evening in June 2009, Richard Holbrooke paid a visit to Pakistan’s President Asif Ali Zardari at the presidential palace in Islamabad. It was one of his first visits to the region as the Obama Administration’s special representative to Afghanistan and Pakistan. In that role, Holbrooke — who died in December 2010 — wanted to broaden and deepen engagement with the country many had come to see as the most dangerous place in the world. And Zardari had his own ideas about how Washington could help.

“Pakistan is like AIG,” Zardari told Holbrooke, comparing his country to the U.S. insurance giant that was bailed out in 2008. “Too big to fail.” Washington, Zardari keenly recalled, had given AIG “$100 billion. You should give Pakistan the same,” Zardari said. Holbrooke smiled throughout the meeting.

(MORE: Putting Pakistan’s Politicians to a Piety Test: Are You Muslim Enough?)

Sitting with Holbrooke was Vali Nasr, then his senior adviser. Nasr recalls the episode in his new book, The Dispensable Nation: American Foreign Policy in Retreat, a searing critique of how the Obama Administration has been too timid to transform American foreign policy. Holbrooke, writes Nasr, was troubled by Zardari’s display of dependence on the U.S. and the sense of entitlement that went with it. “Holbrooke didn’t like the image of Pakistan holding a gun to its own head as it shook down America for aid,” writes Nasr, now dean of the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University.

Holbrooke did agree, however, with Zardari that Pakistan was important and the U.S. had a long-term interest in its stability. For the next year and a half, Holbrooke and his team pursued a policy of diplomatic engagement with Pakistan. It went beyond the traditional approach narrowly based on security concerns. The idea was to try and address Pakistan’s strategic calculus — an ambitious target that may have underestimated how far Pakistan was willing to go without changing its ways. “What Holbrooke wanted,” Nasr tells TIME in an interview, “was to engage big and try and change the course of this country and its relationship with Washington once and for all.”

But from the very start, President Barack Obama and the White House never really bought into the idea. “The White House tolerated Holbrooke’s approach for a while,” Nasr writes in the book, “but in the end decided that a policy of coercion and confrontation would better achieve our goals in Pakistan.” Washington was less interested in working with Pakistan, Nasr says, than pressuring it into compliance. That strategy, he says, has failed. And now, he warns, the U.S. risks pivoting away from the region at the cost of abandoning vital interests that remain there.

“When you look at Pakistan today,” says Nasr, “it is nuclear-armed, in near conflict with India, has a dangerous civil war with its own extremists, is now subject to one of the most brutal terrorism campaigns against its population, that is now coming apart along sectarian lines.” If the U.S. does not maintain influence in Pakistan, he says, it won’t be able to have a positive impact on the direction of the country. “Looking at it from an American perspective,” Nasr says, “we’re just going to be basically saying, ‘We’re going to sit on the sideline and look at this roller coaster go off this rail.’”

(MORE: Pakistan’s Election Season Begins With Two Very Different Candidates)

Holbrooke’s approach was ambitious. A strategic dialogue was established between the two countries. Nonmilitary aid was tripled. Washington began to reach out to civilian centers in Pakistan for the first time. “There was a discussion on energy and electricity and water and women,” says Nasr. “These were ways of laying out for Pakistan a longer road map with the U.S., and alternately trying to put on the table for Pakistan interests that would gradually wean it away from its strategic outlook and bring it in a new direction.” There would be no quick fix. It was a longer strategy aimed at slowly undoing decades of alienation and mistrust.

In the first two years, Nasr insists that there were rewards. The U.S. got more intelligence cooperation, he details in the book. “More agents, more listening posts, and even visas for the deep-cover CIA operatives who found [Osama] bin Laden.” Long-strained relations between Islamabad and Kabul improved enough for it to help U.S. counterinsurgency efforts in Afghanistan. The Pakistanis also finally moved against the Pakistani Taliban in the Swat Valley and South Waziristan, in military offensives that helped the war across the border. “The Pakistanis didn’t cooperate 100%,” says Nasr. “But they did cooperate 50%.”

But the Obama Administration didn’t have the patience to stick with it. As Nasr acknowledges, there was a rival school of thought that said, “It was too difficult, too time-consuming and wouldn’t work anyway.” When Holbrooke died, their view won out. Nasr resigned from the State Department soon after. In 2011, three major incidents brought the relationship crashing to its lowest-point ever: a CIA contractor, Raymond Davis, allegedly killed two people in Lahore; U.S. Navy Seals carried out a raid to get Osama bin Laden without informing the Pakistanis; and toward the end of the year, 26 Pakistani troops were killed in a cross-border incident.

The security relationship, Nasr says, worked better when there were other efforts alongside it. “The Pakistanis said, ‘O.K., you have security interests. We have economic interests and we have civilian interests,’” recalls Nasr. “We always got much further with the Pakistanis in those first two years when the conversation was not just about drones and terrorists, but it was also about energy and water.”

The CIA and the Pentagon saw the benefits of the cooperation, Nasr notes in his book. But at the same time, he writes, they applied constant pressure that “threatened to break up the relationship.” At one point, Holbrooke turned to him, shaking his head, and said: “Watch them [the CIA] ruin this relationship. And when it is ruined, they are going to say, ‘We told you, You can’t work with Pakistan!’ We never learn.”

MORE: Two Cheers for Pakistani Democracy: A Sobering Milestone

64 comments
hawk
hawk

I don’t know why everybody is crying that US should stop aid to Pakistan. Keep this mind; the aid is nothing as compared to what’s Pakistan is doing. No other country in the world, alliance of 50+ countries in NATO have not done and sacrificed to the level what Pakistan has contributed in this WOT. Pakistan has paid a heavy price in terms of human loss, economic loss and internal instability of the country.  US/NATO is dependent on Pakistan. More than 70 percent of US/NATO supplies pass through Pakistan.

America being the so called “democratic state” and “champions of human rights, did all in the last decade which was illegal and immoral. Invaded Iraq, destroyed the country and killed the people, keeping people in jails/detention centers (worse than animal cage) without trials and prosecution, drone who so ever they want to kill without any legal process, and still claim themselves as the “champs of human rights”.

To fight their proxy war against Soviet, USA, CIA involved Pakistan as a frontline state. I regret why Pakistan agreed to their terms! When America felt the Soviet defeat, they abandoned Afghanistan and moved as if they have not done anything. Pakistan and Afghanistan were left at the mercy of no one. What is happening in Pakistan right now is a result of what happened in 1979. I don’t blame anyone for existing corruption and dishonesty, but world powers have extensively used Pakistan and left whenever they are done. Whatever is happening in Pakistan right now is the results of decade old interventions, which brought radicalization, extremisms and militancy in the country. Pakistan has paid the highest of the highest price for being a part of this war.

USA is not less than a rapist. They enter any country of their choice, rape that country till death, and then leave unprosecuted, as if they haven’t done anything wrong!!. Nothing is hidden, what America is doing and whatever happened in Iraq and whatever is happening in Syria & Egypt. The world is silent, does not mean they don’t know the reality.

What Bradley Manning reveled about American atrocities in this so called “global war on terror” is enough to open anyone’s eyes to what actually happened and is still going on. Books like ghost wars, Obama wars and confront and conceal tells you what has not been told time and again.

Blaming and cursing Pakistan for everything super power did and are doing is no smartness nor is it legal and moral. America cried over one 9/11. We in Pakistan face 9/11 on daily basis, just because of the instability caused by “super powers” in the region.

P.S. I respect American people. What I ever I said here isn’t mean for a normal American citizen who even doesn’t know what his government is doing abroad. My criticism is for American policies which they purse in their national interest thus destroying many other nations. And whatever media tells isn’t always true, reality is somewhat very different what is being portrayed. So please, don’t take my comments as personal. I hope we will be able to see peace, soon! 

RaisAhmedMagoon
RaisAhmedMagoon

@TroyOwen 

ndeed Amercian should stop funding......the  so called aid......but how they will manage to handle there all dirty works doing in world, specially in 3rd world.

RishavSharma
RishavSharma

The chaos in today's Pakistan is a culmination of a series of political miscalculations all down to 1 fundamental flaw, rejection of secularity for the people. In 1947, West Pakistan was the most prosperous region in the subcontinent, with vast agricultural and economic resources, comparatively less population burden, a progressive art culture, and American backing. But it was by very definition, not secular. And in trying to steer away from what it perceived as "indian", it lost bangladesh. Although its claim of Kashmir was probably legitimate, it drifted so easily into extremism, it has now no one to blame but itself. The best thing to do right now for Pakistan is to reclaim its "liberal progressive land of modern Muslim people" agenda and work towards it honestly. Use all its means (american assistance included) to wash away extremism, shut down madrassas and promote real education. in other words, establish a de facto secular state. Be real, secularism is the way forward, and if pakistan cant take it, it will continue to slide downwards. FACT.

JonDivine
JonDivine

Pakistan has multiple masters, all are corrupt.  ISI, Paki Military, and corrupt mullahs.  All of them are interested in advancing their own cause and filling their own pockets.  All of them are blackmailing the elected officials, whom USA deals with.  They are asking for money from USA without having freedom to use for betterment of the people.  And what deos Paki military do with most of the aid it receives?  Train terrorists to cause trouble in India and around the world.

Pakistan is a slave to Islam.  There is no room for it it to improve.  Leave them alone, and let them figure out what they want for their own future.

JonDivine
JonDivine

What a self serving nonsense!  Mr Nasr is in the pocket of the Pakis agents.  He has double crossed USA.  And in this book continues to do so.  The key ingredient in Pakistan should be the Pakis wanting to progress to becoming independent of foreign charity, not lobbying Washington to become its parasite.  If Pakistanis does not want democracy, nothing anyone can do, not even the bribes from USA will help.  The basis of founding of Pakistan is slavery to Islam. Until they break the shackles of theocracy, their primary education in the formative years will be in madrassas learning to hate, Yes, Hate USA and India.

TroyOwen
TroyOwen

I think they are frenemies, they tend to say we're going to help and then don't.

They like our money, so they say what we want to hear. 

There are too many people there that hate us as much of the mid-east does.

I say we leave them and the rest of that area ALONE. If some faction attacks us we go there with drones and kill.

Whether they like it or not. Just keep boots off the ground. BUT NO MORE MONEY!

That goes for Egypt and Israel too! Let them succeed or fail by themselves.

shahg64
shahg64

Vali Nasr is an Afghan, and Afghans have hated the existence of Pakistan, since the new nation was created in 1947. I dont expect any sensible comment from Vali Nasr, his rubbish article belies the fact that Pakistan has helped clean up the mess known as Afghanistan, the cancer of terrorism has flowed from Afghanistan into Pakistan, Mr Vali should blame his own nation. Holbroke was a friend of Pakistan, he is not alive to defend himself, so Mr Nasr can lie all he wants. The fact is, Pakistan is a modern progressive nation with decent people, and it is a victim of Afghanistan and India which funds terrorism in Pakistan via Afghan hands.

If the ISI is guilty of interfering in Afghanistan, then the CIA is more guilty, it actually gave the ISI the funds and ideas to recruit Mujahideen. Lets not re-write history Mr Nasr, Pakistan does not need lecturing from a 3rd rate college professor who was a side kick for Mr Holbrooke.

ttaerum
ttaerum

The notion that the U.S. is losing Pakistan is fallacious since it never had Pakistan.  The Pakistani government is a criminal enterprise, as willing to transport U.S. arms as Afghanistan's bumper crop of cocaine.  Yes virginia, under the watchful eye of Obama, Afghanistan is having the largest harvest of poppy ever in its history.  Who says our efforts at agricultural reform in the middle east have been a wasted effort?  And Pakistan under Shariah law, is happy to be a conduit of this bountiful harvest.  Under these same high moral standards, it is an equal opportunity agent for the many branches of the Taliban which, for the right price, can be given safe conduct into Afghanistan. 

Pakistan is also a nation of opportunity.  There is a property that should be coming up for sale soon - its owner met an unfortunate accident (fell overboard) but it's close to amenities and it has some damage to doors and walls.  Otherwise, it's been proven to be the near perfect location for anyone who wishes to have privacy.  Yes, the eyes kind of glaze over when one imagines what we may have lost. 

KTShamim
KTShamim

Wow! Nice article. Seems like a good read from Nasr.

see_beyond_the_veils
see_beyond_the_veils

Americans need to understand how Pakistan got into such a mess in the first place. The terrorism and extremism was bred by CIA as Hillary Clinton acknowledged recently, to get the Russians out of Afghanistan. And then it went unchecked in Afghanistan and North Eastern Pakistan. Recent decade it has blown up and the new enemy is US instead of Russians. 

Pakistan has paid a huge price much more than any country when it comes terrorism and extremism. Lost thousands of innocent lives all around the country with bombings and suicide attacks. The US has to recognize this fact. Just because its a poor country doesnt mean it doesnt have any rights. The poor need the most help.

The way  US can help Pakistan and just do good, steer the leadership to hold fair elections, start to crackdown on corruption, invest in education, help grow the economy. Its nothing new for US, it has been done, in S Korea, Japan, Germany and so on. I agree circumstances, people and religion are different but some results can be achieved. The US needs to bring the Pakistani population to its side and follow the morals the founding fathers intended and make the world a better place.

asmufti
asmufti

Pakistan has all what  it takes to be a  rich country . It has  large farm land, it has a  one of the best irrigation system , It grows every thing , rice, wheat, sugarcane, maize, all  season fruits, vegetables , cotton . It has mineral resources, fisheries. It has mountain , deserts ,rivers . 

I am a proud and patriotic Pakistani .  I still  agree with Farah Aamir Who says that American should stop bailing out  Pakistan  of its economic mess which ts political leadership creates. Once Pakistan knows that no aid or loans is  available , it  can become a medium income nation in three .four years . 

Pakistan should be a responsible member of  international community . American should look after its national  interest and should not expect Pakistan to follow policies against its national interest . 

 Dr A S Mufti

FarahAamir
FarahAamir

As a Pakistani American I would like the US to stop giving aid to Pakistan as none of the aid that we dispense ever reaches its intended audience. Corruption is rampant to the point that it is an open secret. I mean what is the point of giving the corrupt elite billions of dollars so that they can fill their own pockets ? These so called leaders than deposit the same currency in foreign bank accounts and the $ comes full circle. This aid promotes dependence and does nothing for the people of Pakistan. 

Secondly, I think the US has failed to recognize the contribution of the every day Pakistani to the war on terror. Everyday I read an article that lambastes Pakistan and they are picked on constantly. Yet, thousands of Pakistanis have been killed in this War on Terror that they could have easily chosen not to be a part off. Their contribution needs to be recognized. Blaming everything on the Pakistani military setup is convenient and somewhat hypocritical when we all know the history of their formation. Do they need to do more ? Probably yes. But they won't be able to do diddly squat without public support. And that is decreasing by the day under the burden of constant bombings and killings which don't even elicit as much as a "thank you" from the world media.

anjan288
anjan288

Hussain Haqqani has repeatedly told the plain truth, that Pakistan's interests are not the same as that of the Americans', and it was time for a complete break up, in order for the so called allies to correct and reposition their policies towards each other.

But in spite of the glaring mismatch, the so called alliance continues ..... which would not be possible unless it was an  "EVIL" nexus.


Jessica35021598
Jessica35021598

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oumerkhan
oumerkhan

• sewat operation started under musharraf in nov'07. holbrooke took his position in jan'09. so, a major premise of this article is based on wrong information.

• then, the writer claims strong opposition by various US agencies, without expanding with a single proof or an event or a 'sound bite', making that argument extremely weak.

• finally, an abrupt ending shows lack of journalistic balance, giving the entire article the same feel as, say, a News International article, where one starts with a grandiose claim, then fizzles away without substance; yet the fact that such writers keep coming back shows the editors found them 'printable', which, for Time, seems like a wrong hiring decision.

• so, all the very best. but we deserve better than propoganda 'journalism' wrapped in sensationalism.

bookidolatry
bookidolatry

Yes, our relationship with Pakistan is nuts. That's because Pakistan's laws say overtly that open dissent from the main-stream Sunni culture is prohibited. It's legal framework more or less amounts to a Sunni-Wahabi-Salfist dictatorship. Well, I suppose most of the folks in Pakistan enjoy that viewpoint, however, collectively, they also bear responsibility for it. One way in which I dissent from my liberal comrades, (although I remain very liberal on most issues), is that I don't blame colonialism for all of the problems in the world. Some cultures are just hideous with or without colonialism. Many countries that were once colonized are doing okay today, but one requirement for that is not having a hideous underlying culture. The Sunni-Wahabi-Salfist religion is Theocratic, which means that while Orthodox Islamists are allowed to speak and vote, and express fully any idea they like, everyone else's speech is regulated. Pakistan, and its Medieval Blasphemy Laws, have created a thought-police state in which Sunnis are allowed to act out their supremacist beliefs. Note: While they are busy chasing all the Christians, Hindus and Jews out of their country, it must be noted that they love killing off any Muslim minority as well. So we lost Pakistan a long time ago. The leaders are too cowardly to educate their people that participation in modern life is impossible under the delusional fairy-tale mythology of Sharia Law. It's time for Sunni Islam to grow up. If one argues that the majority of Pakistanis actually disagree with Sunni Fundamentalism, then let them demand a government that does not cower to, and enable, at every turn, the Fundamentalist Warlord Wahabis that, in the end, everyone there bows to, even if they claim not to agree. In my experience, though, Islam is so xenophobic that, in the end, even the minority Muslim sects that are being murdered off in Pakistan, they themselves will still rationalize that somehow their persecutors were the agents of Israel or the US. Most minority Muslims would rather make rationalizations for the very Sunnis who are killing them off and destroying their shrines than admit that perhaps the West has it right when it comes to having a secular state that favors no particular religion. And so, their anti-Semitism and their "blame it all on colonialism" views trap them into also enabling the Sunni majority, which either favors Salafist Apartheid, or doesn't favor it, but never has the guts to mount a real and sustained and funded challenge to it.


Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/04/14/losing-pakistan-an-insiders-look-at-how-the-u-s-deals-with-its-ally/#ixzz2QVqcZKfG

Usman_OnTheMoon
Usman_OnTheMoon

America is paying the price in the region for listening to the Indian Lobby in Washington. Had they partnered with Pakistan from day one, assured and then later showed Pakistan of their support, it would have been a different story for both America and Pakistan. But, this is the path the White House (aka. Indians in Washington), and the CIA chose, now they are reaping the benefits. 

feellikeaking
feellikeaking

@MurtazaGeoNews it's hardly surprising when Zardari compares Pakistan with AIG and demands $100 billion from them, with a straight face.

KaleoK
KaleoK

Pakistan is no ally of the USA. It is THE major source of terrorism in the world. All of the terrorist attacks in India, the 9/11 attacks, assaults on the London Underground, the Madrid railways, etc as well as failed attacks such as the Times Square bomb, shoe bomber, etc had one thing in common.

In each and every case, the terrorists trained in camps in Pakistan run by the Pakistan Secret Service (ISI) and rogue members of the Pakistan army.

General Musharraf turned a blind eye to this. His successor has not done enough to close these camps.

msends
msends

It was done with the right intentions but Pakistan's corrupt leadership and military cannot be trusted with anything. Almost the entirety of financial assistance provided gets routed straight to swiss bank accounts and property in european tax havens. Americans are very smart people but they get taken in time and again by these greedy leaders of Pakistan. How do I know? I am from Pakistan and I am telling you there is no water, no electricity, no education, no justice, no law and order, nothing!!! Either one of these problems is easily fixable with some financial backing and a will to solve the issue but no such desire exists within Pakistan's leadership, this bunch is probably one of largest group of undocumented billionaires in the world.

MahendraSatyam
MahendraSatyam

@hawk

Pakistan has multiple masters, all are corrupt.  ISI, Paki Military, and corrupt mullahs.  All of them are interested in advancing their own cause and filling their own pockets.  All of them are blackmailing the elected officials, whom USA deals with.  They are asking for money from USA without having freedom to use for betterment of the people.  And what deos Paki military do with most of the aid it receives?  Train terrorists to cause trouble in India and around the world.

Pakistan is a slave to Islam.  There is no room for it it to improve.  Leave them alone, and let them figure out what they want for their own future.

mahendra, mumbai (INDIA)

BilalChohan
BilalChohan

@TroyOwen selfish considering the US started the mess in the first place... typical

anjan288
anjan288

@shahg64  

Yeh ...... Afghanistan, India, the US, Israel ..... all are responsible for Pakistan's problems  .....  and Pakistan is the little innocent kid , that did not know what was right and wrong,  and simply trusted the US in the 80s ......  total denial of facts ..... you Pakis are a nation of liars ,  not Vali Nasr ..... !!

JonDivine
JonDivine

@ttaerum Pakis will be much better off if they return the land to its original owner:  India.

JonDivine
JonDivine

@see_beyond_the_veils Pakistan got into the mess because it is formed on the basis of slavery to Islam.  It is run by the military and ISI, not elected reps of people.  Pakistan got into the mess because the primary education in the formative years is in madrassa, not in the real schools.  Pakistan got into mess because they are taught that all the scientific problems have answers in quran, a vulgar book at the best.


Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/04/14/losing-pakistan-an-insiders-look-at-how-the-u-s-deals-with-its-ally/#ixzz2QgWFzneH

anjan288
anjan288

@see_beyond_the_veils  

Pakistan lost many lives, and will lose many more lives, is all due to its own misdeeds .......... it is now reaping what it sowed ..... it is neither any sacrifice,  nor does it deserve any sympathy from the international community.

No one can help Pakistan, unless Pakistan helps itself .......  winding down the terror infrastructure, run by the Army and the ISI, would be a good first step .....  are you Pakis willing to take the first step ........ ? 

phhrnd
phhrnd

@FarahAamir  I would agree on the first point but beg to differ on the second as it is a bit of a stretch. People dying in Pakistan,is because it is reaping the seeds sown by its American masters when they created the Taliban to fight the Russians and of late,the terrorists meddling in Afghanistan and Kashmir,India. You reap what you sow!

TroyOwen
TroyOwen

@FarahAamir I agree, I wish the US would stop sending "aid" to many if not almost all countries.

We really can't afford it.

oumerkhan
oumerkhan

• your assertions come across as those of someone deeply troubled by the current affairs of that country. it is unfortunate that your logical argument got sidetracked by your overwhelming hatred for the people and the state of pakistan.

• so, please, keep on with your rants. they amount to nothing in the eyes of those who are living the tragedy day in and day out. yet, your ego continues to feed on your pompous arrogant self-delusion of let-me-teach-this-entire-nation wet dream.

redrascal
redrascal

@Usman_OnTheMoon - They (US) did partner with Pakistan from day one - see the history of the US moving the 7th fleet to the bay of Bengal to pressurize India in the 1971 war, and they partnered to "get rid of the Soviets" in Afghanistan, got close to Gen Zia and ignored his support to terrorism in India, and supported Musharraf's coup, so had they actually not partnered with Pakistan , maybe Pakistan would have understood the dangerous path it undertook by grooming militants at an earlier stage in life and corrected it self, and we would not have Pakistani's with delusions ( life of being on the moon perhaps) of their importance to America.

bahadur227
bahadur227

What a strange comment from a bunderstani RAW agent.

oumerkhan
oumerkhan

• the retired general whom you complain about, is facing a trial in that country, and was removed from power half a decade ago. now that you've finally received the memo, please update your status to "out of the cave, finally!", and it would most certainly serve you to ask your friends, "what did i miss".

TroyOwen
TroyOwen

@BilalChohan @TroyOwen  What did we start in Pakistan? They were to be our allies in this and they have terrorists training in their country.

oumerkhan
oumerkhan

- derogatory terms used against black or homosexual folks would not be allowed in this esteemed magazine. why is a derogatory term used against PAKISTANEES allowed, published, and tolerated then?

williamscot99
williamscot99

@JonDivine @ttaerum I m sure u r an indian urself with a Christian name. Don't get us into ur #hit, as far as I am concerned, u guys I believe have not given Kashmir to Pakistan due to which all this enemity started, pakis did give some land demanded by Chinese.....askai chin and they live in peace.

u Indians just tried to get all the benefits on our shoulders.....did not join us in the fight and created busniesses on the blood of our brave men and women in uniform. probably u were too scared of talibans......I wish Obama had restricted ur access to the post war mineral exploration rights.......our tax payer has contributed more money to this war than anyone else...thus our companies should get these contracts, not any Indians or Chinese.....

see_beyond_the_veils
see_beyond_the_veils

@JonDivine@see_beyond_the_veils

 @JonDivine@see_beyond_the_veils Jon lets not try to incite hate and throw stuff out like that. After all you have the word divine in your nickname. 

I agree with your first point, I am pro a secular system where all folks can do whatever they like and religion is not imposed upon you. It might be a fundamental flaw in the creation of Pakistan but if it wasn't for it there would have been no argument for Pakistan. That said you will be surprised how secular it is, because it is a very old historical population there are all kinds in Pakistan and they have been alongside with each other. That also changed after the 80s after which sectarianism and religious violence sprung and was motivated by different forces foreign and domestic. 

Lastly it tells me you got your knowledge of the Quran by reading a blog on Fox. Did you know there is a chapter its name is Mary and there are 28 mentions of Jesus in it. Muslims believe in the same God as Abraham, Noah, Jesus and so on.

oumerkhan
oumerkhan

- derogatory terms used against black folks or homosexuals won't be published in an esteemed magazine. then why is a derogatory term used against PAKISTANEES used, allowed, published, and tolerated here?

shahg64
shahg64

@anjan288 @see_beyond_the_veils No because it listened to the US in the 80s, and because India is pumping a lot of money in Afghanistan to create mischief and mayhem in Pakistan.

bahadur227
bahadur227

That is the biggest lie.The 7th fleet never sent as promised.That is called "Stabing in the back."Stop liaing on behalf of bunderstan(india).

RaisAhmedMagoon
RaisAhmedMagoon

@TroyOwen @BilalChohan 

Its very kind of Americans when ever they want they make allies and when there dirty work is done after using allies they say BYE BYE and  start blaming to poor ally


JonDivine
JonDivine

@oumerkhan Pakistan is a parasite, ripping off the government.  In fact, after what I learned on my several trips to Pakistan, I must say that what is written here is nothing as compared to what Pakis say about their own country.  Pakistanis struggle to establish identity.  Pakistanis think just because they converted a piece of land into a muslim country, every muslim must kiss their hind.  Pakistan is a disease of the world, and must be eradicated.

nicks.iitd
nicks.iitd


@williamscot99 @JonDivine @ttaerum: JonDivine plz dont burden us with Pak , they wanted a separate nation they have it now ...we want none of it ......and Yes u sud be ashamed of urself for using vulger in the same sentence as Koran, If ur an Indian I m ashamed of u man ...Which Indian disrespects another religion ?

@williamscot99 : Sir US looked the other way while we shouted about being bombed on a weekly basis through out the 90s ....Only after 1997 did US wake up to the threat of Jehadi terror [I hate the word Islamic terror] and wanted the world to act .....Well Sir we are not ur mistress like our neighboring country ....U watched us burn in guise of National interest we r doing the same ......Please excuse my insensitivity about ur men in uniform ... have highest regard for all men in uniform, including those of Pak army [except when they double up as Jehadis in Kashmir Valley]

anjan288
anjan288

@shahg64

You Pakis are a nation of liars ....... living in denial and blaming others for your own misdeeds will not get Pakistan anywhere ...... !  ..........  there is no escape this time ...... own your past mistakes and misdeeds ,  correct you path ..... or Pakistan will be in flames for ever .....