The U.S., Japan and South Korea Flout China’s Air Defense Zone. What’s a Superpower To Do?

Beijing knew that rivals would soon test its controversial East China Sea Air-Defense Identification Zone, but this is all just part of a grander strategy

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Kyodo News / AP

U.S. Navy FA-18 Hornets cram the flight deck of the USS George Washington during a joint military exercise with Japan in the Pacific Ocean near Japan's southernmost island of Okinawa Thursday, Nov. 28, 2013

The Americans struck first. Just days after the Chinese had demarcated an air defense zone that includes skies over islands claimed by both China and Japan, a pair of U.S. B-52s flew through the controversial space, lingering for around two hours. On Nov. 23, Beijing had warned that flights crossing its newly designated East China Sea Air-Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) would be required to inform the Chinese of their flight plans. Planes that contravened the new rules would risk “defensive emergency measures,” said China’s Defense Ministry, even though China’s ADIZ overlaps with existing ones drawn up by three American allies: Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.

(MOREAre China and Japan Inching Closer to War Over a Few Disputed Islets?)

But the American bombers ignored Beijing’s implicit threat. The Chinese military’s immediate public response? Silence. Then the South Koreans divulged that they had also dispatched a fighter jet to another part of the Chinese ADIZ that extends into Seoul’s own lines in the sky. Again, no forward notice by the Koreans. No speedy reaction from Beijing.

Not to miss out, Japan, too, confirmed that it had sent military sorties over the disputed islands without bothering to tell the Chinese. Relations between China and Japan have foundered in recent months over the disputed islands, which Tokyo administers, calling them the Senkaku, while the Chinese, who use the name the Diaoyu, have also laid historic claim

Finally, on Nov. 28, the Chinese reacted. Beijing announced it had sent fighter jets and an early-warning aircraft for a patrol of the newly minted ADIZ. Yet China’s Defense Ministry spokesman also cautioned on Thursday that it was “incorrect” to assume that China would shoot down any planes that veered into the ADIZ. “The specific measures that will be taken will be decided based on the specific situation and the extent of the threat being faced at the time,” said Col. Yang Yujun — as if that helped clear things up. (Any nation can create its own ADIZ, which holds no global legal significance and is different from a nation’s internationally recognized air space or an even more extreme no-fly zone.)

But by that point, online patriots had taken to Weibo, China’s social-media service, to mock their government for having set up an ADIZ, dangled the threat of military force at those nations that didn’t respect it — and then appearing as if they had retreated. “Where were our military hawks when the American planes came?” wrote Wu Zuolai, a Chinese writer, in an online commentary. “How will they clean up this mess?”

(MORE: Return of the Samurai: Japan’s Leadership Seeks to Recapture the Country’s Former Glory)

Others were more measured but their essential message was the same. This was an embarrassing come down for a rising power eager to stake its claim in East Asia and resolve various territorial disputes in it favor. A Nov. 28 editorial in the hawkish, Communist Party-linked Global Times was headlined “B-52s defiance no reason for nervousness.” But part of the article struck a cautionary tone: “We failed in offering a timely and ideal response… and [this] will probably even undermine the image of our military forces.”

The creators of the Chinese ADIZ, backed by the vigorous President Xi Jinping, surely knew there was a chance other nations would ignore the order to radio flight information to Beijing. (After all, Chinese pilots regularly ignore the part of Japan’s ADIZ that covers the Senkaku/Diaoyu islets.) Why, then, risk a backlash at home from a nationalist audience that might expect something Beijing isn’t likely to deliver?

Here’s one answer: Over the past couple of years, China has been busily assembling an architecture of territorial integrity to legitimize its claims. In the resource-rich South China Sea, where Beijing has disputes with several Southeast Asian nations over some reefs, shoals and islets, the Chinese government has reemphasized a nine-dash line on maps that essentially scoops out nearly the entire waterway as its own. Maps with the nine dashes now decorate Chinese passports, much to the chagrin of nations like Vietnam and the Philippines.

At the same time, China has built up the administrative might of the departments that claim purview over these contested specks of land. China has also dispatched ever more naval vessels to contested waters in both the South China and East China Seas. On the morning of Nov. 29, the nation’s first and only aircraft carrier docked at a southern Chinese naval facility in preparation for its inaugural training mission in the South China Sea. The day before, the Chinese Defense Ministry had said that it would be conducting regular air patrols of the new ADIZ. Crowded skies and waters — such is the new normal in a fraught East Asia.

MORE: China’s Restriction on Airspace Over Disputed Islets Could Lead to War

203 comments
asyanthings
asyanthings

To answer Lex11's question why Japan would not negotiate?  OK, the Diao Yu islands, ADZ are not at the center of the dispute.  The dispute is only a smoke screen - it is used to add justification to re-arm Japan, to rebuild the Imperial Army of WWII, making it an offense military force.  No more self-defense forces.  If you look at it - Japan recently launched a new helo carrier, it is a 22000 ton amphibious assault ship and what does Japan call it?  A destroy.  Have you seen a destroyer able to carry 8 F35 fighter jets, or 12 assault helos?  And they named the ship with the name that invaded China in 1937, and the flag draped over the ship during launch?  Same flag the Imperial Japanese Army flag in WWII.  Wonder who's the aggressors here.  And oh, as for the ADZ, what is the big fuzz?  Japan had its own ADZ dated back to 1969, in the same general area, overlapping with China's ADZ now, so did Japan "consulted" with China in 1969?  And for Time's headline of "xxx flouting China's ADZ xxxx", Time is uh, trying to be dramatic and stir things up, belittle China at the same time.  Let me tell you - no country would inform the other with ADZ of its military flights ahead of time.  For one thing the ADZ has no legal foundation and not recognized by the international community.  But the U.S. set one up first, and eventually 20 some other countries did the same.  Commercial flights do inform countries with ADZ of its flight schedule, flight plans;  military flights - no advance notice and that is why countries with ADZ scramble jets to "escort" the intruders when it comes too close to the legal air space of one's own.  And the U.S. did quietly advise U.S. airlines to comply with the Chinese ADZ requests?  Flouting?  Let's not be over dramatic, rooting for a fight.  That is the way it is.  And China did say "if Japan retracts its ADZ, China will consider doing the same".  Will Japan do it?  Something to see, ha ha.

JericoCruz
JericoCruz

China must be engaged militarily now before it can put  a venom in its fangs.

lex11
lex11

For better or worse, China has a valid claim. I don't understand why Abe refuses to negotiate. Maybe because without this issue, he doesn't get to drum up the nationalist rhetoric and his plan to amend Japan's pacifist constituiton would fail.

ysprefer
ysprefer

这到底是为什么:1. 宋朝的重文轻武;2.明清的道德先生(孔老二);3. 中国读书人,口是心非、颠倒黑白,认识几个字,全用在口水仗了,要知道文比武厉害,只不过中国的文,只是认识几个字的腐儒、记账先生而已;欧美近代以来重科学技术,重试验,实事求是、一丝不苟的精神,方是中国所缺的。看到中国那些所谓的明星,天天将乳房和大腿半露半不露的,即自称明星;看到中国一天到晚,沉迷于抗日神剧;看到中国的那些富豪,不是通过科学技术发财,而是通过红顶商人或房地产,剥削、扭曲整个中国经济而发财;看到中国人仍然在自欺欺人,150年过去了,丝毫没有长进;如果没有原子弹,中日之战早就发生了,而中国仍然没有胜算。

ysprefer
ysprefer

“天地不仁以万物为刍狗,圣人不仁以百姓为刍狗”,世界本来就是这样,欧美人踏上美洲的时候,印第安人纷纷染上瘟疫,不断死亡;英国人撬开中国国门的时候,中国人吸食鸦片,但好的很。这是因为从古至今,中国天灾人祸瘟疫不断,欧洲的那点黑死病,对中国来说根本就不算什么的。达尔文也说过“物竞天择,适者生存”。中国目前要做的,不是要道德先生,不是要朱熹的“生死是小,失节事大”,而是鼓励中国的孩子、少年,多专研科学、技术,破除陈腐的观念,悉心观察欧美各国的施政措施,得失、优点和缺点。何必责怪父母以歪风邪道教育子女,父母都是为子女好的,教他歪风邪道,也是自我保护,华夏几千年的风俗和价值体系,毫无可夸,堂堂中国那么大的国家,近代屡次被他国入侵,金、蒙古、满人、英国、日本。日本那么小的国家,把中国打成那个样子,如果不是美国介入,1945年还不能结束战争。这到底是为什么:1. 宋朝的重文轻武;2.明清的道德先生(孔老二);3. 中国读书人,口是心非、颠倒黑白,认识几个字,全用在口�

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

Abe is such a fool, the whole ADIZ and the Senkoku/Diaoyu dispute is only a tool to revert Japanese and US attention from the real competition: the oil pumping competition in East China Sea, in which the Japs didn't even participate! Japan right now does NOT need re-militarization, they already are highly industrialized, and excels in car manufacturing and ship-building, when war breaks out they could re-militarized in a heart beat. They should worry more about economic growth and try to sell weapons, which I doubt the US will be happy about, having another huge competition. Them Japs stress too much on this "Japanese Way" ideology which prioritize psychological comfort over effectiveness and pragmatism.

ysprefer
ysprefer

中国名为社会主义,实为国家资本主义,苏联名为社会主义,实为专制集权主义,欧美名为资本主义,但目前奥巴马的所作所为,最低工资、国家医疗保障、国家失业保障,实际上比世界上任何一个社会主义国家更社会主义。老美仍然是少数精英集团统治下的民意政府。中国不论怎样,都是我们的祖国,中国人不论是否加入其它国籍,都是中国人,最起码的爱国心要有,脱离实际、脱离人民的攻击中国政府及其目前的合法代表共产党是可耻的,最近习李新政,逮捕了不少贪官,虽然只是冰山一角,但逮比不逮好,还是不错的。告国人不要幼稚到相信欧美的宣传和所谓的民主和人权,美洲的印第安人即是明例。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

你们真是太傻了,你们既然反中共,为什么要拿民族主义者和爱国愤青开刀呢?

大多数的中国人都在文革中失去了对政治运动的兴趣。正是因为文革的过分激烈与血腥,让现在的中国人对任何类型的政治运动闻风丧胆,避之不及。

中国人没有哪个是对政府满意,谁都骂中共,但你们真去问问他们“该不该做点什么来改变现状”,个各人都会说“你饶了我吧,要革命你去革,老子的小命没那么贱”。你骂中共,大部分中国人会跟你一起骂。结果骂完了呢,该怎么着还怎么着。

现在的中国人都是以自我利益出发,没人会去为了公共的利益、为了别人的利益去跟政府拼命。要他们游行,抗议?除非是为了他们个人利益,要不,门都没有。文革早把中国人的政治热情消耗光了,没有个几十年恢复不了。

现在唯一有那么一点“胸怀天下”的政治热情的人就剩爱国愤青了,其他人都爱钱爱权,国算个屁。而你们法轮功友,怎么都这么傻呢?谁要是为中国辩护一下,你们就骂他,与他为敌,把他们推到中共那边。我都有点怀疑你们是中共资助的。。。

你们应该把国和党分离开来,告诉他们共党名为爱国,实属卖国;名为护卫百姓,实为鱼肉百姓;名为打击日本军国主义,实为助长日本军国主义复兴。而不是丢什么 “五毛”,“走狗” 之类的词汇炮弹。这没啥用,说服不了谁。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

Japan has already lost in the conflict. The conflict is about oil and natural gas under the East China Sea. But so far, Chunxiao and other Chinese oil drilling platforms has already been pumping oil and gas out of ECS for SEVEN BLOODY YEARS, while their Japanese counter-part is still non-existent! The Japanese is way too sheepish and and way too infatuated with war toys and with trivial formalities, too bureaucratic and too little pragmatism. What they should have done is keep a non-confrontational face while the same time, drill the crap out of ECS, instead of wasting their energy pushing for this stupid re-militarization agenda and try to change their pacifist constitution which could be easily changed in a heart beat when a real war is breaking out. But the stubborn power-worshiping Japs just have to do it, giving the CCP ample propaganda materials and at the same time causing SK and Taiwan concerns.  

The Japs are still the same stubborn short sighted people who wasted their precious steel on giant-ass useless battleship like the Yamato EVEN WHEN they were the first people to successfully carried out a devastating naval aviation strike on enemy using aircraft carriers! They are tactically smart asses who are strategically stupid.

ysprefer
ysprefer

plus the last, China do not care whether other people like us or not, We do what we have to do, to protect our people from outside threaten, we will no sacrifice our own people by pleasing other people.

ysprefer
ysprefer

1. Bad Translation, in Chinese it is "Air Identification Zone" not "Air Defense Zone". I really doubt the knowledge of this author, is he igorant or on purpose?

2. China is not a superpower, at least, not on the traditional sense of that of USA and Soviet Union.

3. Chinese Enemy is Japan, not USA. Wish USA do not inflate the danger of new China, it will not be good to you also. USA haven't invade China yet, but Japanese, I am sure if there is no nuclear bomb, the war between Japan may happened long time ago.

4. It's just a start, In Chinese we say "blood for blood, teeth for teeth" or "revenge may come after ten years".

mahoneyct
mahoneyct

The USSR hurt itself very badly by shooting down KAL 007. China would make a similar mistake if she shoots down any planes in her ADIZ. China has already made all of her neighbors dislike her. A reckless act of warfare would have serious consequences, maybe even loss of MFN.

JerryTan
JerryTan

china talks big and warns of taking, i quote "defensive emergency measures" over anyone who dares question their bullying actions of lebensraum. 

and yet they can only bark, and backpedal furiously when Uncle Sam swoops in "insert flight of the valkyries music"  to japanese airspace, as if to say "LOOK AT HOW MANY FKS I'M GIVING"

Even South Korea is getting in on the act. hahaha what a joke!

jefforsythe9
jefforsythe9

People who live in the West are very naive concerning the ambitions of the blood-thirsty Chinese Communist Party. If it were not for the strength of the U.S. military machine the brutal CCP would have destroyed Western civilization years ago. This is the true nature of the CCP. The CCP has murdered over fifty million of its own people since 1949 and is now attempting the genocide of the tens of millions of innocent Falun Gong practitioners who live in China. This genocide consists of torture, slavery, organ harvesting and murder. People living in the West have not been allowed to know these truths because of corporate greed. This is the truth concerning the heinous CCP.

shaguangguizi
shaguangguizi

all these four countries are not paper tigers.one gets real benefits from the dispute is the winner.

yc625268792
yc625268792

America can establish its own ADIZ,Japan can establish its own ADIZ,why Chinese can not???Definitely,it is bully

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 中国传统文化的精髓就是管理文化。如何管理,如何整合力量,如何降低无意义地消耗,如何稳定社会,如何经济独立, 一系列的问题都是儒家真正探讨的有永恒价值的问题。尔等从来没有仔细地,独立地读过古书,和历史。宋明理学是有其问题,但是西方有问题的思想著作多得去了,很多的时候,并不是中国文化和思想不够先进有力。而是因为中国历史的巧合。刚好发生了那么一件事,主导了历史。兴兴衰衰是历史发展的必然过程,西方人也有屈辱落后的时候,而当时的他们可远比现在的我们更能平和地接受历史,等待机遇,而不是一味地骂自己的祖先,不假思索地否定自己的传统。你这种怪罪他人怪罪古人的行为只能证明你是个被娇生惯养的没有能力担当使命的懦夫。只有懦夫才知道怪罪,而不是冷静地怀敬畏之心看待历史和人性。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 顺便告诉你,中日战争,中国若没有胜算,只因为日本在发展工业的时候,中国在相互批斗。如果别人在发展工业的时候,你只搞内斗,搞运动,搞“打到走资派”,你他妈就算是纯种德意志超级民族,个各两米高,平均智商180,你也照样会被对方揍得像猪狗一样。 这和文化体系一点关联都没有。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 我真的要睡觉了,我困死了,我看你是把宋朝当成明清了。宋朝是被蒙古灭了,宋朝是有很多不尽人意的地方,但这无法掩盖她的伟大。也许只有大陆人才会如此偏激地贬低中国历史,因为历史没有尽他们之意,古人没有杀光日本人,欧洲人,没有蛮横地征服世界,没有给现在的中国人脸上贴金,所以历史该死。没问题,就依了你吧,宋朝操蛋,宋朝算什么鬼东西,宋朝一堆垃圾废物,PRC才牛逼。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 日本人害怕中国的原子弹?你脑子进水了!日本的核工业发达的很!日本人想要原子弹唾手可得。日本人怕的是中国的整体实力和战略伎俩!怕的是日本花1.5亿美金买的美国技术的金刚级宙斯盾,中国过了十年的通货膨胀之后仍然只用5分之一的单价就一下子开造了四艘052d。日本人能骗一骗清朝,而被中共牵着鼻子走。日本傻子花钱开军舰去钓鱼岛耀武扬威,而中国投资春晓油田,开发石油,日本人的钻井在哪?日本人花冤枉钱,中国人赚真利益。傻逼安倍拜靖国,鬼有屁个好拜的 !当时日本在东亚是唯一的工业化国家,朝鲜半岛和台湾乖乖地说日语,中国弱爆了还内斗,这他娘的是千载难逢的好机会,结果呢?整个国家缺乏统一战略智慧,军队内斗,一会儿打苏联,苏联没打赢又惹美国。日本当年就是靠出口廉价产品给美国来发展国家的,结果30年代美国大萧条,日本经济崩溃,农民,手工业者,家庭作坊大量破产,四大财阀财路俱断,所以国家卖国债给财阀发展重工业来打仗,想通过打仗来刺激经济。大萧条前的“大正时代”是自由主义高涨的时代。军国主义能迅速膨胀,正是因为作为和平主义的主要支柱的中产阶级和个体手工业者在美国大萧条的冲击下大量破产给予了机会。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 嗨,我去睡觉了,跟你聊天太无聊了。好好读读历史,小朋友。日本人根本打不过中国人,日本人只能乘中国人内斗时,左右逢源的夺取利益。日本人没有在中国打过一场真正的硬战,大多数时候,都是靠日军的机动能力来削弱和调动中国的兵力,以达到分散和避开国军主力,然后逐一击破。日本人最大限度地利用了国军军阀之间的内斗,不与近我者硬战,吸引对方调动,然后发挥自身后勤优势,突袭敌军薄弱环节。

你被中共的教育洗脑的一塌糊涂,盲目自卑胆怯,因为中共只有靠告诉国人"中国人有劣根",“中国人无药可救”,“中国历史都是屈辱史垃圾史”,这样才能凸显共党的伟大,才能警告中国人:如果离开了共党,中国人就会被外人鱼肉奴役。

你这厮,不去好好反省,反而怪你父母把你生称中国人了,生成炎黄子孙了。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 宋朝中文轻武,有什么问题么?你对宋朝有了解么?宋朝的经济与科技和政治文化的超前是惊人的!你这完全是成败论英雄。按照你说的,英国也是垃圾(英帝国现在不也衰了么),罗马帝国也是垃圾(罗马也没了么),只要失败过,灭亡过就是垃圾?亲爱的,宋帝国的成就太伟大了!你说宋朝重文轻武,你可知重武轻文的金和西夏在短短几个月时间就被蒙古击溃灭国,而宋帝国与蒙古坚持了二十年,蒙古为了战胜宋,动用了波斯,突厥,阿拉伯的,所有蒙古所能动用的一切被征服文明的科技与力量苦战20年才亡宋。就是罗马帝国也做不到啊!王安石变法是国家资本主义和凯恩斯主义的鼻祖。范仲淹,苏轼这样的思想家,沈括,杨辉者养的数学家,我们以后恐怕永远不会有。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer “天地不仁以万物为刍狗,圣人不仁以百姓为刍狗” 指的是“不尚贤,使民不争,不贵难得之货,使民不为盗”。讲的是清心无为,反对任贤,反对以智治国,支持以道治国。这和你说的话到底有什么关系,我真的闹不懂了。

你的历史观实在是太狭隘了。中国还真是到了明清的时候才逐渐闭关锁国的。唐宋时期和元朝的对外开放是没话说的,那时候的西欧为了抵御穆斯林而闭关锁国。清朝也怪满族出于统治战略的考量,为了稳定被迫走上极端保守化,放弃了明朝军队大量使用中小型火器的传统。满族的返古风早在完颜雍的时代就埋下了伏笔。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer "天地不仁以万物为刍狗,圣人不仁以百姓为刍狗",你显然没有明白这两句是什么意思。如果你明白,我不懂这和你的论述有何关系。你说“中国风俗和价值体系毫无可取”,我简直要疯了,你否定了一切,那我该从何说起呢? “物竞天择,适者生存”,你要是稍微研究了一下进化史,你就知道儒家的“中庸”理论是多么的正确!就从这里讲起吧。你去看看恐龙的演变史和恐龙灭绝之后陆地主要脯乳类动物的演变史,你就会发觉,非常多以“特殊性”博得一时优势的物种稍微遇到一点换进变化,就立刻灭绝了。那些存活能力最强存活时间最长的复杂物种,则是放弃“特殊优势”(specialization)而专长于综合适应性的,比如说猫就比剑齿虎存活得更久。 这就是中庸!

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer  爱国还是要以爱文化为上,政权可以更替,但是对国家民族文化的长远影响,更值得我们注意。杀几个贪官是可以暂时地取悦与人民。但是国家最高行政官员的职责是战略性的考量,应该以长远之计为主要出发点。杀两个贪官谁做不到?今天中国如此官僚主义,贪官遍地都是,随便逮两个杀了,太轻而易举了。而如何革新政体,少出贪官,让贪官无法贪,这才是本事,才是政绩。 现在世风日下,人们专心利己,毫不利人,轻视思想道德,父母以歪风邪道教育子女,子女已自私贪婪对待父母。我华夏花了几千年建立的风俗和价值体系几近沦丧,政府做了什么? 知识分子阶层又做了什么? 我虽然反对法轮功的激进主义,但反过来,我又有什么权利批评别人?我又为中国做了什么?所以,我不敢像你那么乐观,那么轻易地满足。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@JerryTan Japs has no right to cry "bully" or "Chinese threat". If Japs really are victimized, they are victimized by their stubborn stupidity and their lack of strategic consideration. If they really wanna win, they should stay submissive and invest 10 times more money than China in drilling oil out of East China Sea, angering the Chinese to no end while getting the benefit, and then patiently waiting for the Chinese to attack, which will trigger a small scale Sino-American war, and then wait a little bit just before it escalates, Japan will then jump up and be the good-hearted pacifist that yell "stop", and then stop the war by make a huge pacifist speech about how Chinese people and Americans should love peace and no war, and offer "concession" in order to stop the war. If Japan do this, it would elevate into the most powerful and capable country in the world, getting all the benefits. 

While in reality, they've been played around by China like a slow-reacting fool.

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@JerryTan look at today's news, China scrambled its jets to shadow US and Japanese military aircraft. Still think She is a paper tiger? And what did Obama administration do? It suggests to US airline carriers to respect and comply with Chinese ADIZ rules in order to be safe. Don't talk tough to non-western countries, sweetheart, western countries values human lives more than anything, believe it or not, that's the greatest weakness of the West. US is one of the countries which, despite its military prowess, does not have the power and culture to put unarmed civilians in danger. So, unless you can make sure that your industrial power is always more than 100 times stronger than your opponent, it is unwise for the West to stand too firm against any enemy who does not share Western values of respecting human lives. 


The best way to win against China is still the old way, Western culture, Western values, Western aesthetics and humanitarianism. Believe it or not, these thing has MUCH stronger power against China than guns and missiles. In fact, I see nothing that can stop the spread of Christianity for example in China in the long run. Just like how Buddhism won China, Christianity and western values will repeat that victory.

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@jefforsythe9 You are over-exaggerating the ability of the CCP. In fact, the only unchanged rules and influence in China is still Confucianism Buddhism and Taoism. I disagree with any kind of over-exaggeration. You might think you are scaring the westerner into hating China and thus push for reform and revolution in China. But in fact, you only strengthening Chinese people's fear for the CCP, and fear is irrational and will scare more Chinese into changing. People naturally fear power and brutality. In the long run, it still require the Chinese people themselves to reform their government structure. So, I'd rather tell the Chinese people that they should be more confident and that their government is in fact much easier to change have they really pushed for it. But the problem is, Mao has exhausted the Chinese people's desire and drive for political activities under his rule. It might take at least a couple of decades before the Chinese people regain their interest in politics again.

法轮功,就好好地去练功。别让你的意识和精力被无聊的政治把戏占据。如果你的信仰和修行真的经得住考验,那么真金不怕火炼。你有真价值,自然会有发光的一天。当中华民族需要你们的时候,希望你们有真功夫,而不是嘴炮。现在这个世界,不可能像蒙古帝国时代那样野蛮。特别是大国之间,大战争打不起来。都是玩外交游戏争取利益。真正有大德行的政府,像尧舜禹那样,才会被骂倒,因为他们是德盛之君,把荣辱看得比命重要。现在的政客,哪一个不是流氓,更何况是中国?中国领导层的政治斗争比春秋战国时的诸侯国之争还要血腥黑暗百倍。中国政府,岂是靠你能骂倒的?太多的信息都是分散人们注意力的,注意力分散了,人的能量就耗费流失了。所以别浪费时间,去练你的真功夫,成为真正的大师。

SenegalRepublic
SenegalRepublic

@jefforsythe9  I think you have no idea about China.  Do you know how many Chinese were killed by Japanese?

You have no idea about that. 

China has never made the first shot after the foundation. We are cornered . We were just fighting back.

US and Japan set the ADIZ many years ago. Now, China wanna set it , You have questions? 

We are very tied of the double-standards of western countries. 

DeweySayenoff
DeweySayenoff

@yc625268792 No one's saying they can't, my Chinese friend.  But usually these are used to defend one's national air space and borders.  It's not usually done over disputed lands.  These islands have no military strategic importance and are far from Chinese borders (more than 330 km).  So claims of "national defense" are hollow and self-serving at best.

Claiming them from a historical point of view, as the PRK is trying to do, has no validity since it wasn't until oil was discovered there that the PRK began pressing claims of sovereignty in the first place.

Until 1895, they were unclaimed.  The Japanese formally annexed them in 1895 and retained control until the end of World War Two, at which point the United States held them.  They were then given over to Japan by treaty in 1971, and have been held by Japan ever since.  Only Japan has ever financially improved them or exploited them, with a fishery in the early 1900's.  In all respects, Japan's claim appears to be superior to the PRC.  If any other nation has grounds for a claim, it would be the ROC (Taiwan), which is not part of the PRC no matter how much Chinese leaders may want it to be.

So it's not so much THAT they established their ADIZ.  It's WHY they did.  They're trying to make the land under it theirs, and it isn't.

Or to put it another way, if an ADIZ is like making sure you only put your hands in your pockets, because your pockets are yours, you paid for them, and you wear them and are trying to make sure you know who else is putting their hands in your pockets, the Chinese establishing an ADIZ is like them trying to stick their hand in Japan's pockets.

Most rational people would call that bullying, if not theft.  It's your call on that.

ysprefer
ysprefer

1. 将维护中国利益,说成被中共洗脑,你在自己推翻自己前面所说的话。2. 日本没有在中国打过硬仗,中国人没有缺点,是谁不敢直面现实,不知道“知耻近乎用”3. 既然会说英文,就可以无语言障碍的理解西方文化,却仍然改不了阿Q精神。4. 前文所说的口水仗,即是指此,不说也罢。

ysprefer
ysprefer

宋朝的重文轻武,是因为皇帝防备自己人,不知道地球那一边,还有那么广阔的区域;但到后来,二代、三代以后,皇帝长在阉人、妇人之中,胆气越来越弱,澶渊之盟相比李世民当时单骑付会,一个脓包,一个雄心万丈;  现在形势不一样了,中国已打开国门看世界,目前所急需的不是道德和满口的假仁假义,而是一个强有力的、维护国民利益的国家机器,一个朝气蓬勃,破除任何陈腐观念的人民,用自己的眼睛看世界、用自己的头脑思考问题、善于学习、善于实践、实事求是、敢说实话、真话。原子弹能保障国家安全到几时,尚不可而知,中国人不应那么软弱,应当在艰苦的环境中,不断的磨练自己,变得更强。我不希望我的后代孝顺我,我只希望他们能更强,自己活的更好。

jefforsythe9
jefforsythe9

@jimmyjames30x30 @jefforsythe9 I am just informing people of the true nature of the blood-thirsty Chinese Communist Party. One doctor, employed by the cruel CCP, just confessed to removing the corneas from two thousand living donors. A young, pregnant Falun Gong practitioner was illegally put in a prison cell with four hardened criminals and they were ordered to rape her.You have no idea of how many hundreds of thousands of Falun Gong are being tortured and being held in hidden slave camps but Falun Gong relatives post all the brutalities that they can on our website and a record of these atrocities, including the names of the offenders, are being recorded so that the guilty can be brought to trial after the CCP dissolves, which should be very soon because the Party is losing its control of the media.

chailatte
chailatte

@DeweySayenoff Your arguments that China is bullying are flawed.  First of all, China has maps dating back centuries that showed diaoyutai.  As such, Japan's claims that these islets were not claimed by anyone in 1885 when Japan started surveying the islets are inaccurate.  The Qing Dynasty was too weak to patrol the diaoyutai then as it had too many problems to deal with--including foreign encroachment on Chinese soil.  It's true that the oil and gas discovery around those waters have heightened interest among both the PRC and Japan in the diaoyutai but then even after the defeat of Japan, all successive governments of China (both nationalist and communist) have never given up claims on diaoyutai.  In fact, Taiwanese and Hong Kongers have continued protesting Japanese occupation of diaoyutai and there are Mainland-based, Taiwan-based and Hong Kong-based societies set up to reclaim the diaoyutai from the Japanese.  See http://www.diaoyuislands.org/ for HK example.  If you look at proximity, diaoyutai is also much closer to Taiwan (70km) than any part of Japan.  Even in terms of proximity, without Okinawa, the diaoyutai would be really too far away from mainland Japan.  Note, Japan only invaded and annexed Okinawa in 1879.  Before that, Okinawa or its ancient name Ryuku Kingdom was a tributary of the Qing Dynasty.  You also seem caught up in semantics over China and Taiwan.  While they are politically different entities, diaoyutai is seen as belonging to the Chinese peoples on both the mainland and Taiwan. It would be more acceptable even for the PRC if the diaoyutai were controlled by Taiwan than the Japanese as it would mean a reversion of diaoyutai to the Chinese people.  As an ethnic Chinese person who is neither born/brought up in the PRC or Taiwan, I'm not under the influence of either political entity.  I love them both because they are my people.  Even if we don't consider historical facts, there is no neighbourly justification for Japan to continue holding on to diaoyutai.  Japan is a country with a shrinking and aging population and its energy needs will decline with time.  China on the other hand has a large urbanizing population that requires ever more energy to meet its needs.  Given Japan's disastrous attempts to colonize its neighbours, isn't it a nice gesture to give the diaoyutai to China to help it on its development?  A prosperous China is good for Japan and the entire region.  Japan has no historical imprint or vestiges on the islets--no human settlements, no nothing there.  Few Japanese feel any emotional attachment to such foreign islets so far away from the Japanese mainland.  In this case, Japan looks like it is the one that is the bully.  It tried bullying its neighbours in the 19th century to 1945 and now tries to hold on to the gains of her bullying days.  Isn't it time to give that up?  There is another interesting contradiction that Japan practises.  She is actively demanding that Russia return the Kurile Islands to her--Russia took over the Kurile Islands as gains of WWII. If Japan is not willing to return the diaoyutai, what right does she have to demand the return of the Kurile Islands to her?  Japan wants her cake and to eat it too.  Who's the bully here?  It's Japan.


- A proud Chinese Singaporean. 


perhapshey
perhapshey

@DeweySayenoff 美国是世界警察吗?我觉得很像,美国侵略阿富汗,美国侵略伊拉克,美国侵略叙利亚,都能找到很好的理由。。。不是每一个国家都能被你们打败的,风水轮流转,离你们失败的日子不远了。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@perhapshey @jimmyjames30x30 @ysprefer 他这么瞧不起中国传统文化和思想,专攻技术,最终就会像日本一样,技术上的巨人,战略上的矮子。或许能逞得一时之强到邻国烧杀抢掠一番,可最后,就会以巨大的战略失误告终,而让华夏蒙羞!

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 亲爱的,你根本就不知道我说了什么。我说你洗脑,是说你被"54新文化运动"洗脑,而54运动就有点打倒一切传统的左派激进主义的倾向。共产党也拥护54运动,而这种拥护,其目的,就是为了给共党在执政期内一些无聊的销毁文化传统的政治运动提供合法性。我并不完全否定共党的一切,共党有很多业绩,共党的一些核心管理思维非常先进优秀,可圈可点的地方很多。 54也不完全错, 说真的,古人也说过,废立兴衰的循环是常理,儒家法家在优秀,也是人造的,也是产物,是产物就不可能永恒,就需要时不时革新一下。儒家一样注重革新的重要性。54运动也有它的必要性。

不过是时候翻案了吧,是时候把踏在传统文化上的一千之脚松开几只了吧!我们的思想已经革新了,我们眼睛已经被西方人文主义“点亮“了吧!我像我这时应该有权利再用我雪亮的”现代“的”先进“双眼再重新地不加偏见地审视一下传统思想和文化了吧!我有权利再度发觉传统思想文化里永恒的宝藏了吧。你是要我跪下乞求你的允许么?!

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 你的子孙不需要你教他们如何思考,你只要不把你不安全感和自卑感,和由这两感衍生出来的懦弱感带给你的孩子们就行了。你一味追求武力强大,体现了极度的不安全感。你认为任何和失败和儒弱沾边的东西都是肮脏的。原子弹保了中国安全?笑话,是毛泽东的抗美援朝保了中国几十年的安全。是志愿军所体现的战斗意志保了中国几十年安全!是中国精神和爱国情怀保卫我们的安全!什么事中国精神的核心?是我们独一无二的文化,只有这个是我们永恒的不可被他人取代的identity。你有再多的武器,若失去了战斗意志,就是任人宰割的羔羊。你有听过《我的祖国》么?那不是拍党马屁的垃圾,那是中华儿女最直观的战斗意愿的体现,就是保护自己的家乡,自己生长的土地的气味儿。

他们用献血所捍卫的纯洁的土地被我们用廉价租个了罗斯柴尔德们和洛克菲勒们用来剥削贫苦朴素的农民。战士们心中向往的净土被我们贪婪的水泥森林践踏。我们如何对得起他们,对得起牺牲的他们!!

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@ysprefer 我真心劝你好好去读一读宋史,再来说话,宋朝不知道地球之大?你在开玩笑嘛!宋朝时期的对外往来不比唐朝差!文官弄权是真,罗马元老院的议员们弄权也是真,大家半斤八两。更何况,宋朝尤其是南宋的海上经贸之发达,是你很难想象的。地球的另一边, 若果你是宋人游玩到是公元1000左右的中东的话,你会说,“这地方还可以,异国风情吧,和苏杭比起来还差一点”。如果你到君士坦丁堡去的话,你会说,“属于中国二线军事重镇的规模,和汴梁没法比”。如果你到公园1000年的西欧的话,你会说,“这是什么穷酸地方,一股臭味啊!”。你去好好读读历史,好好看看宋朝时候的世界是什么样子。

jefforsythe9
jefforsythe9

@jimmyjames30x30 @jefforsythe9Here is what I believe. First of all Westerners need to become aware of these atrocious crimes. Then petition their Governments to quit trading with the filthy CCP. Its like would you go shopping in somebody's store if you knew he was a child molester? No, you would not. Then , the wealth that exists in China today soon evaporates and the people living there will be forced to take a look at who and what is running their country. That is when change will occur, so each of us here can make a vast difference by informing our friends about the truth but first of all we have to learn it.  The atrocities that the CCP are committing would make you sob. One Falun Gong practitioner who recently escaped  said that when he saw someone else being tortured, for some reason, he felt guilty.Thank you for your concern.

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@jefforsythe9 @jimmyjames30x30 They are not losing control, sweet heart, they are gaining control. And you fools helped them. Because unless you can get relevant international bodies like the UN or the US supreme court to formally convict them with real presentable evidence for these torture you claim, it will still only stay as internet rumors. 

Even incidents like the Katyn Massacre remained controversial for decades, in fact, it didn't become widely accepted until the 1990s when real government entity conducted real investigations on the matter. So before you can get real convictions or real confirmations by government entities by either China or the US. You are going no where and people will not choose to believe what they want to believe and not be convinced.

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@JerryTan Sweet heart, even if you guys manage to get Japan and US to start a war with China, you still lose. Because war cost money and resources, the US can not possibly win a war against China without spending at least 100 times more than it did in Iraq. and when the war is over, all three countries will be exhausted. By then, the most you can achieve is to reduce the Chinese population by half (or more)---which is exactly what China wants, less people.

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@JerryTan sweet heart, Japan already lost on the Senkoku/Diaoyu conflict. The whole Senkoku/Diaoyu conflict really centered around oil and natrual gas in the East China Sea, its a resource war. Until today, Chunxiao Oil field and other Chinese drilling platforms has already pumped oil for 7 years while its Japanese counter-parts is still non-existent. The real competition is the " see who gets more oil out of East Sea faster", and the Japs are still stupidly and stubbornly pushing for re-militarization(which cause concern for both the US and SK as well as give the CCP potent propaganda material) instead of concentrating on the resource grab war. While as China uses the whole confrontation thing as a tool to absorb more US and Japanese attention, while at the same time pump more and more oil out of ECS. 


And all you can do is cry "bully".....

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@JerryTan If you really want to talk international politics, I will tell you one thing: China does NOT care about Diaoyu/Senkoku AT ALL. It is only a pretext for exerting control. It is control over people, both domestic and abroad; control over resources and world economy. Just like the whole Taiwan issue as well as North Korea, all a bloody game because we have too much energy and too little things to spend it on. Why? Because governments need things to do, they need motivations, they need problems to solve, they things to spend our tax money on. And it is the same for us individual human beings. 

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@oamuwtikcus 你们什么时候能够学会像甘地那样应对。你们什么时候能够用德行,修养,思想的魅力来感染他人,感化他人。不用威胁,不用孤立的办法来得到别人的信赖,改变别人的想法,那个时候,你们才真能做到攻无不克,战无不胜。

严于律己,宽于待人。这样才能战胜。

最苍白无力的就是骂人话。

JerryTan
JerryTan

@chailatte @DeweySayenoff Funny, Singaporeans are typically familiar with paragraphing, it's one of those things taught in the third grade. Now IN CHINA...

" Given Japan's disastrous attempts to colonize its neighbours, isn't it a nice gesture to give the diaoyutai to China to help it on its development?"

Haha, i see, the end-game is to take away the Senkaku islands from Japan. Japan has learnt from her "disastrous attempts to colonize its neighbours", but it appears China has not. China needs to be taught that lesson, the way Japan was taught with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

If you are a tiong, just come clean and say so. don't need to feel ashamed, you are who you are.



PDXTony
PDXTony

@chailatte @DeweySayenoff 

You might want to check out google maps of the area you are discussing.

there are islands near it that are owned by Japan , Ishigaki, for example.

Your arguments about the history of lands and who owned then in antiquity for every country in the world. wouldnt your same arguments same apply to Tibet ? 

Japan's claim over the islands in question go back to the mid 1850 and at least 1900. China had zero claim or interest in them at this point,....

The tiny islands that everyone is arguing about are inhabitable , they are too small to do anything with but nearby islands have been improved and occupied Japan. China has made zero interest in claiming them until oil reserves were discovered in the area. 

I know shocking huh? China is just being a bully and everyone can see that. a  claim of 300+KM as an air defense zone is a joke. 

The US uses 12 miles from its shores but 100 miles? 




JerryTan
JerryTan

@chailatte @DeweySayenoff 


"Your people" are your fellow singaporeans, if you are even one. Singaporeans of all stripes, whatever their ancestry, or where they came from 200 years ago. my ancestors left china for singapore before the mayflower even landed in new england.

careful now, your han racism is showing.

china is behaving like imperial japan, and we need a new truman doctrine to deal with these bullies.

JerryTan
JerryTan

@oamuwtikcus 

as a proud singaporean, i think this chap is probably one of those freshly minted singaporean, fresh off the boat from tiongland (1 million new residents in Singapore in the last 10 years, from China.) Or another delusional one still sucking off the teat of his imaginary "homeland", aspiring to han racism. But most likely an astro-turfing tiong.

China is a bully, and her conduct is no different than that of imperial japan and nazi germany. time for the international community to take a stand.

oamuwtikcus
oamuwtikcus

@chailatte @DeweySayenoff wumao, get out of singapore and return to mainland where you belong. Singapore despises you invaders! Sound more like another CCP paid propagandist aka 50 Cent Party

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@oamuwtikcus @perhapshey @DeweySayenoff 

“别指着你的头发起誓,因为你不能使一根头发变黑变白。”

打死一个人? 别说了,你是做不到的。你要能够做到,你就不是一个心智正常的人了。你打死他有什么意义呢?你打死他也改变不了他的想法。如果您能靠死亡的威胁来迫使他改变他的想法,你又成了什么了?

什么事都不值得让人说这种话。

jimmyjames30x30
jimmyjames30x30

@oamuwtikcus @perhapshey @DeweySayenoff 你骂他一点用都没有。别以为你能考羞辱来改变他人的想法。 唯一的办法仍然是圣贤们用了千年的办法:柏拉图《理想国》里的“引诱”(seduction)。其实就算你杀了他,也改变不了像他这样的族群在整个中国人口的比例。除非你能把中国大陆的人都杀了。

改变一个人的想法远比杀了他要难得多。因此,你的德行和思想魅力才是最有力的精神武器。